“We cannot continue to excuse poor decisions” and “cannot make the survival of our auto industry dependent on an unending flow of taxpayer dollars.”
Thus Barack Obama, on the subject of General Motors. This was in the course of a speech given yesterday, which indeed rewarded poor decisions by giving the company 60 more days to keep operating on taxpayer life-support.
Obama is the Revolution of Circumlocution. Whenever you want to know what he actually means, just reverse his statements 180 degrees.
Neil Stevens
Steve Maley
Daniel Horowitz
Jake Walker
More like Lewis Carroll's 'Through the Looking-Glass'
bk (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 8:20AM EST (link)Force Bankruptcy Now
PubliusII Tuesday, March 31st at 8:24AM EST (link)As Mr. Cianfrocca posted yesterday, all of the stakeholders in GM (except the UAW) are poised to take a bath, perhaps even be wiped out.
Most credit facilities and bonds I have seen obligate the debtor to maintain financial ratios. Surely GM is in violation of those covenants and thus in default of their various obligations already. Sometimes the creditor may declare a default if it feels “insecure”. Surely all of GM’s creditors must be insecure at this point.
If a stakeholder is facing disaster anyway, why not declare default now and force a bankruptcy filing? At least the UAW contracts will also be in the mix; they will not be if we wait for the Administration to restructure GM.
PubliusII
At the end of 60 days...
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 8:26AM EST (link)If the lease on life through taxpayer support is renewed past those 60 days you’ll have something to prop up what seems to be the complaint here. In the meantime, he’s put a 60 day deadline on that taxpayer funded lifeline which is more than any president, Republican or Democrat, has done in the past few decades of us handing over cash to auto makers.
At this point I’ll take what I can get.
Obama being so good at keeping deadlines.
Steph C (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 8:44AM EST (link)/sarcasm
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics
Be that as it may...
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 8:56AM EST (link)I think this is one we can expect him to keep.
1. No love lost between him and the auto industry.
2. It’s an easy way to flex a bit of muscle before going after other businesses.
Some might fault him for not allowing the company to fail … others might fault him for allowing it to fail in 60 days … but nobody will say he caused the company to fail. The company was failing long before he came into the picture. At this point he might as well use them as a prop before wrestling with others businesses.
There was already a deadline
ReallyBored Tuesday, March 31st at 9:00AM EST (link)The first “Here’s some money so you don’t die” program in December had a deadline of March 31 (today, in other words) for the automakers to present their plans for how they would get off of the government dime. President Obama extended that deadline by 60 days.
That's kinda the point
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 9:08AM EST (link)He extends the deadline so that he won’t seem inflexible. I wouldn’t bet money on him extending it again.
He told the one company that they needed to accept a deal with Fiat if they wanted more cash (how much did that drive down the Fiat offer?) and had a CEO tossed out at his behest.
He gets to seem flexible (I gave them an extension!) but companies he deals with in the future are FAR more likely to remember the demand to sell to a foreign firm and ditch a CEO far more than piddly 60 day extension. He’s been in office longer than that extension will last and it will give him far more mileage with the American people.
You write very well for a 12 year old.
Tbone (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 9:14AM EST (link)Or at least some one with an 6th grade education in business.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
You can do better
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 9:26AM EST (link)by engaging the ideas rather than just belittling my education or lack thereof.
And you missed the point completely!
My point is that I believe Barack is approaching this as a politician and not as a businessman. This isn’t about my business acumen or lack thereof. It’s about political moves.
As a political move it’s not bad. I believe that MOST americans will believe he is being tough but fair and have a favorable opinion of him because of it. Companies he deals with in the future will remember the ditched CEO and the foreign sale.
No, your point is that the Master loves you and will never betray you.
Moe Lane (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 9:32AM EST (link)While Tbone is being his usual bomb-throwing self, the fact is: you’re not providing ideas. You’re providing apologies.
Now, you’re being reasonably polite about it, and it’s fun watching you flail about while doing it, but we’re not going to pretend that you’re thinking when you actually aren’t.
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://moelane.com/filthy-lucre-filthy-lucre/
http://twitter.com/moelane
My (combined) wish list.
WT*?
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 9:38AM EST (link)I have said that I think the general public will approve of it.
I have said that I think private companies will take a different lesson home from it.
I have said that it was well played.
Not one iota of that is an apologia for Obama. I don’t believe his actions warrant an apologia from me. I don’t believe that explaining what I am (admittedly) guessing his goals are mean that I’m secretly in love with him.
I would rather he allowed the companies to fail.
I”m frankly confused about where you’re coming from with this statement. It seems bizarrely defensive and off-kilter. Please explain.
Sorry I misunderstood. You write very well for a 12 year old.
Tbone (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 10:03AM EST (link)Or at least some one with an 6th grade education in political science.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
And again...
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 10:09AM EST (link)You’ve insulted me but have yet to say anything of substance.
Should you say anything of substance
Tbone (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 10:47AM EST (link)I will certainly respond. Until then, it is you that insults you. So far, your stuff has all the reasoning depth of a 60 cycle humm.
I often wonder if you guys are really complete idiots or are just sufficiently sentient to think we are.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
Baffled
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 10:50AM EST (link)I’m not sure who the “you guys” are. It’s just me.
I’m not even sure what I’ve said to offend you except that I think Obama will attempt to strong-arm other industries and use this event as a cover to show that he has been more than fair in the past.
Frankly, you seem paranoid.
Frankly, we have a right to be paranoid. Every time
janis (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 11:06AM EST (link)the Zero does something that is as arrogant and unAmerican as interfering in private business, we get trolls and mobys by the truckload here to question why we don’t agree with their Zero-hero. While you keep saying that you aren’t apologizing for Obama, your claims ring hollow as you continue to excuse him for his actions, and defend them as politically smart. From where we stand, they are nothing but destructive to the country we grew up in and wish for our children and grandchildren to inherit intact.
Apologists such as you threaten that aspiration.
You misunderstand
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 11:13AM EST (link)I’m not attempting to excuse his actions. I’m offering an alternative to the original post. I don’t think that he is being cluelessly Orwellian. I believe his actions are deliberate and calculated.
As for supposedly defending them as politically smart…
The fact that they are well played, again, has nothing to do with approval. One could observe Hitler’s rise to power and comment on the clever political hanky-panky and well applied thuggery without believing that he was in the right.
I will admit
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 11:15AM EST (link)that I think there is less interference here than people seem to think. Nobody forced these companies to accept federal money. Nobody forced them to agree to all the strings and conditions that come with that.
The overwhelming interference was welcomed along with the money.
Color me unsympathetic.
They should have refused the money.
So, like do you like get paid to moby
Tbone (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 11:44AM EST (link)or is it a hobby?
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
Nope
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 12:29PM EST (link)Sorry for the slow response. I had a lunch and went to go find out what a moby is.
I’m not merely attempting to disrupt ideas here. I am attempting to offer something up even if you do think it’s feeble crap.
I don’t believe that public purse money should go to private funds. That being said I also don’t think that Obama should be making displays of this sort. I do think he is doing both of those things. Again, I don’t think he should.
I also don’t think he’s cluelessly Orwellian or casually idiotic. I do think most of these announcements are planned and that any resulting theatre is something that his staff attempt to take advantage of.
Not an unusual occurence here
Kate_Shanahan (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 11:20AM EST (link)Engage them with facts and good arguments. We all step in it from time to time.
Kate
“It is the American vice, the democratic disease which expresses its tyranny by reducing everything unique to the level of the herd.” Henry Miller
I doubt that this one will do either.
Moe Lane (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 11:36AM EST (link)Given that he’s about to pretend that he’s really a conservative, at which point I will ban him for lying.
Ain’t that right, C- R-?
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://moelane.com/filthy-lucre-filthy-lucre/
http://twitter.com/moelane
My (combined) wish list.
It's just Chance
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 12:37PM EST (link)if you want to be familiar.
And six of one half dozen of the other. I do believe that I am fiercely conservative in some ways (public purse money should NOT benefit private business) but I’m not in other ways (I don’t give two wags of a dog’s tail about gay marriage). The wonderful bi-chromatic rainbow of American political parties means that I don’t have 100% in common with anybody.
I’m not the best fit for the republican party but neither am I one for the democrats. Some intense and personal attacks (offline not just on the internet) on both myself and my family have largely taught me that I certainly want nothing to do with the local democrats.
Tell it to the Houston Democrats, buddy.
Moe Lane (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 1:23PM EST (link)Tsk, tsk, tsk.
[Blam.]
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://moelane.com/filthy-lucre-filthy-lucre/
http://twitter.com/moelane
My (combined) wish list.
Nah, it's funnier to watch you flail about.
Moe Lane (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 11:16AM EST (link)For at least the next 3.75 years, probably.
The Kim Kardashian of blogging.
Check out my blog at http://moelane.com/.
http://moelane.com/filthy-lucre-filthy-lucre/
http://twitter.com/moelane
My (combined) wish list.
Why do you think its good that Obama is scaring business?
Alberta (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 10:58AM EST (link)Also, I dont care that you believe most Americans think. We have actual tools in this part of the world to gauge what people think, and most polls (in fact all of them) show that Americans are not down with bailout nation.
So nice try but fail. Obama as a tough guy? Thats really stupid. You are either not informed or a hack.
Also your comment about how this deal hurts the Fiat deal is really really dumb. But wait your right Fiat is foreign so their bad. Silly me and decades of empirical data in favour of free trade.
Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God’s side, for God is always right.
Abraham Lincoln
OK then...
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 11:05AM EST (link)Let’s look at the actual tools to measure that.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll_033109.html
Whether or not you think that the poll from ABC is rigged it is very clear – The number of people who believe that this country is heading in the right direction has tripled. 80 percent of respondents said banks and businesses generally deserved at least some of the blame for the current crisis, while 72 percent blamed consumers and 70 percent blamed Bush. Only 26 percent identified Obama as blameworthy. That 26% largely coincides with the number who identify as republicans.
So the tools suggest that people don’t hold him responsible and that they increasingly think the country is on the right tack.
I never said he had to BE a tough guy. Appearances alone are are sufficient to either appeal to or manipulate large numbers of people.
About fiat – you may well consider it dumb but if I were Fiat I might be willing to offer a lot less for a company that has had its options limited in a very public forum.
I don’t think they are bad because they are foreign but I doubt that there are many that will consider the wholesale purchase of vital industry by foreign interests to be in our best national interests as time goes on.
And again...
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 11:08AM EST (link)I’m baffled as to how me suggesting that I think Obama is trying to scare some businesses = I think that is a good thing.
If I observed that there was a continuing and massive loss of human life in Sudan you wouldn’t assume that I approved of it merely because I said it was happening.
Okay, I'll play.
The_Gadfly (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:23PM EST (link)But since Moe’s watching, I’m obligated to give you fair warning: When The Gadfly bites, it hurts. So don’t make me bite.
You probably can’t tell since we moved to Red State 3.0, but Blackie here has a heck of a track record on this site. When he posts, you read it if you have any investments anywhere. If it’s bad news and you’ve got flexibility, you might get ahead of the markets by 24 hours or so. Same thing applies for upsides, but those have been kind of rare lately.
I think we can pretty much trace our inference that you think “Obama is trying to scare some businesses = I think that is a good thing” to your earlier remark “At this point he might as well use them as a prop before wrestling with others businesses.”
The only point to a President wrestling with other businesses, is if he is working in fascist/marxist/communist mode where the government is in the routine practice of dictating what businesses (and frequently their subjects as well [such tyranies don't have citizens]) ought to be doing.
Also the whole bit about it showing “flexibility” is pretty much a non-starter in these parts. There is no flexibilty here. Blackie’s been outlining the auto situation for a while. GM is screwed from years of incompetence, shot through the whole corporation. They have too much debt, too many lines of vehicles, to many feathered executive nests, and pay too much in wages because of the UAW. The ONLY way out of this mess is smacking the UAW upside the head with a clue by four, and even that probably won’t do much good. Obama is beholden to the UAW, so the biggest thing in the whole mess that needs to be fixed, won’t get fixed. Which means the 60 day extension isn’t about flexibility, it’s about keeping the UAW off his a** for the next 60 days while he tries to figure out how to spin this whole mess so it doesn’t land splat on him the way the AIG retention payments did.
Oh, and no, we tend not to believe Washington Post/ABC polls around here. They were in the bag for Obama as soon as he started running. He’s a true blue commie like most of their reporters and editors are. Oh, they may claim they play the role of “objective” reporting, but as the so called pro-1st amendment people always use to say, the worst thing about censorship is what you don’t hear. And what they don’t want you to hear, you don’t. There’s another post here today about the the New York Slimes spiking their ACORN investigation because it might have harmed the Big 0. Most of the rest of the print and broadcast media take their cues from the NYS. If it doesn’t fit their meme, it doesn’t get reported. If it does, it gets reported, and particularly if it can be used against a Republican, it gets reported on the front page.
As for T-bone, well, we see all kinds of trolls, mobys and seminar posters around here. After a while, you sort of develop a 6th sense for it. I’m guessing T-bone’s 6th sense was going off, and he just skipped past the analysis and went straight to the closest thing he has to a blam stick. That’s okay. Moe, who actually has a real blam stick, seems to think you’ll be fun to play with for a while, so you’ve got a little bit of leeway. Probably not a lot, but a little.
So, now that I’ve given you a bit more lay of the land, let’s see your response.
Not trying to offend.
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 12:51PM EST (link)Let me know if I do.
And sorry for the delay. I broke for a snack and to look up some of the slang that’s been used in here.
I’ve no idea who most of the people you mentioned are. I’ve read posts on here for a while but largely ignored comments until the past week or two. I don’t know the personalities. Thank you for the brief overview.
I’ll try to address your points in order.
The “At this point he might as well use them as a prop before wrestling with others businesses.” was a side comment not an endorsement. I just think that’s what he is doing. Purely utilitarian. If the company can’t be saved through private or public effort (and I don’t think it can) why wouldn’t they find another way to make use of it? From their own words they say they never waste a crisis. I’ve no doubt that they will find new and interesting ways to spin anything that happens and it’s clear nobody/very few will hold them to be responsible.
As far as wrestling with other businesses goes – I don’t believe it’s controversial that he plans to do that. He has said he will. He has said that the rules of the game will change. If he plans to do that it only makes sense that he will attempt to do something to prepare for it rather than charging in blindly. Again – this is not an endorsement.
Flexibility – I don’t think he is actually being that flexible but I do think he is trying to create an image that he is. He has essentially said “Oh well. I gave them a deadline that they missed but they are trying really hard guys. Let’s give them 60 days and see if they can do better.” I believe he has already made a decision to either nationalize the company or let it slide into bankruptcy and is just crafting a “tough but fair” image. Is it an image that makes much sense? No. But I just spoke to somebody in person not five minutes ago that took that lesson away.
As to the ABC poll – I agree that there is a tremendous bias across a wide spectrum of media today but these numbers ring at least somewhat true. A thrice over increase is really hard to rig with so many watching and so many other pollsters waiting to call them out. And a triple increase is in no way within a margin-of-error small difference. I don’t find the numbers good but they are compelling.
Romney thinks firing the guy was a good move
Kate_Shanahan (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:17PM EST (link)http://tinyurl.com/terminatorbackbone
Interesting
Kate
“It is the American vice, the democratic disease which expresses its tyranny by reducing everything unique to the level of the herd.” Henry Miller
I hadn't given that much thought before but he makes sense
kyle8 (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:29PM EST (link)there is plenty to not like about any of the things Obama has done, but getting rid of the people who ran a major company in the ground is not one of them. Like it or not the government is now a major equity player in GM and Chrysler so they have a say.
Romney is correct that it would have been far better just o go into bankruptcy.
“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle
They should have refused the money
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 1:03PM EST (link)But having taken it I’m hard pressed to find a consistent/coherent reason to say that no strings can be attached to that money. It’s also hard to say that the CEO was doing such a bang-up job that he should be kept.
Public purse money never should have been involved here but after it became involved it seems foolish to hand it over to the same person that appears to have lead the company to the point that it needed the cash.
We should have set the conditions when we gave them the money, not retroactively. nt
Alitheia (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 1:14PM EST (link)I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never be forced to live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
I think the whole lot ought to be fired
Steph C (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 3:02PM EST (link)but they didn’t do that, did they? Just the CEO. Nor do I think it’s the government’s place to do it. All his underlings are still in place and one of them took his job.
I’m no economist so I depend on Blackhedd a lot for that side of things but, I also have to try to look at things from the left’s perspective. I’ve yet to see anything from that side that speaks to any knowledge of how the economy works, except…
Frank is making noise today about determining salaries for bailed out companies and that’s a really bad idea for the economy as a whole. A better idea would be stop bailing out companies. It’s not the government’s business in the first place.
However, given that it has and will continue to do so there is something important that seems to be escaping notice.
If the government gets to determine what the salaries are for bailed out companies, even those companies that are successful and viable will have to follow suit, because the salary caps will reduce those bailed-out companies competitiveness. Those companies will not be able to attract any of the best and brightest who will know full well what they’re worth.
Now, given that the government can’t seem to mind their own business, the next thing we’ll be hearing is that the government needs to set caps on every wage from every company because nothing else would be “fair.” And… they’ll make arguments on that in the interest of fairness.
In addition to Frank, and before his noise, there was the statement from Geithner that he needs more power to take over businesses and the reasons he gives for that are pretty vague. Escaping much MSM notice, a bank or two per week has been seized over the last three months and most of the time the reasons for doing so are as vague as Geithner’s reasons for wanting more power to seize.
Also in the meantime, newspapers and other media outlets are going bust and there’s noise about nationalizing them as well. Once nationalized, they truly become the propaganda machines for which they’re auditioning now.
Control the economy, control the information, and you control the people.
So, while we’re worried and focused on 2010 and 2012, the left is working on making sure that 2010 and 2012 don’t even happen. Nothing they’re doing is Constitutional and they don’t care because they’re working on making it irrelevant.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics
Does anyone remember the definition of "deadline"?
JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 9:18AM EST (link)It is the line that, beyond which, you are dead.
That’s it.
Deadlines, by definition, are not flexible.
Why not just call it a “gee, please do it by this day if you get around to it” instead?
“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
Somewhat-agree
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 9:23AM EST (link)Except that we’re dealing with public perceptions and not a dictionary perfect world.
I’d wager good money that if you polled common citizens they would approve of Obama extending the deadline because the company is trying really hard or some such silliness. And they would not see this as incompatible.
Then don't call it a deadline
JustLeaveMeAlone (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 4:26PM EST (link)Call it a “please do it by this day if that’s ok with you”.
Words. Have. Meaning.
And I’m dang tired of Obama and his ilk redefining terms to suit themselves. It’s akin to the Situational Ethics espoused by the Left, and I’m dang tired to that, too.
“To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” Thomas Jefferson
Note what's 60 days off
Finrod (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 9:52AM EST (link)I’ll bet you $5 that just before Memorial Day Obama will announce some further extension, probably the Friday before.
Let’s get down to brass tacks here. How much for the ape?
Except he won't call it an extension.
Steph C (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 10:16AM EST (link)He’ll have someone concoct numbers that says it’s working only they need more time and money to make it effective, much like every other government run program that is about 4% effective: “With more money and time we can make it 8% effective… See? It’s working, we just need more time and resources thrown at it”
Meanwhile, the real goal is to bankrupt everything to justify nationalizing the entire economy from the piece of bread you use to sop up the last few drops of juices from the meal you just had to how people work and get paid and even how they spend their leisure time, what they can or can’t own, and so on.
“[I]f the public are bound to yield obedience to laws to which they cannot give their approbation, they are slaves to those who make such laws and enforce them.” –Candidus in the Boston Gazette, 1772
Hillbilly Politics
This is the attitude that got us to this point
Wing Zero (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 9:15AM EST (link)- Bush Tax cuts are temporary (I’ll take what I can get)
– John McCain (I’ll take what I can get)
I could go on…
1-21-09 – We are so screwed… Wait… maybe not just yet.
No. It's the attitude that came after.
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 9:30AM EST (link)Parties, opinions, and ideologies out of power frequently have to make do with that. I believe there is no shame in recognizing the limits of what can currently be achieved, working for them, and setting other higher goals after that.
The Times it needs a changin'.
Sharp_Right_Turn Tuesday, March 31st at 9:08AM EST (link)The NY Times can argue about how the Internet has torpedoed their paper until they’re blue in the face. The ultimate reason for their demise is because their readership has plummeted due to their sloppy reporting and their political bias. Pretty much every daily paper dangling on the edge of a cliff today has the same blueprint for failure the the NY Times is employing.
Unless they start balancing their reporting, the only thing that will save them is a government bailout which isn’t too far off on the horizon these days.
Ford OTOH
JoeG Tuesday, March 31st at 9:11AM EST (link)Here is part of an interview with Bill Ford and Alan Mulally:
http://www.freep.com/article/20090331/BUSINESS01/903310329
I think this part will be huge for Ford:
Q: How did you feel about the congressional reaction to Detroit’s auto industry last fall, when GM and Chrysler sought assistance?
A: “The fallout from that, it was breathtaking to me, and not in a good way. I was alternately horrified and then angry at what was going on. But what’s been interesting, though, is I don’t think that’s shared on Main Street. … I think there’s an enormous reservoir of goodwill towards Ford. And I think the fact that we’re seen as trying to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and make it on our own is also resonating with people around the country.” — Bill Ford.
Kowalski
JoeG Tuesday, March 31st at 9:13AM EST (link)I think Ford should tag their vehicles with:
“No taxpayers were harmed in the manufacture of this vehicle”
Real Americans will refuse to buy a GM car
Tbone (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 9:17AM EST (link)until real Americans are again running the company.
Envisioning when all that is Left is the Right.
Let them go
trki (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 9:35AM EST (link)They made their beds let them lay in them.My taxes are not for private use.Our fore fathers are rolling in their graves.Do not let them do any more.Pick up your phones,e-mail,knock on their doors,tell them WE don’t want it.They don’t have the right.
Redeeming Obama, Sr.
tedpomeroy (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 10:01AM EST (link)Has anyone done some serious thought and writing on the hypothesis that the President’s emotional underpinnings may be stunted with a desire to redeem his father? His Socialist father was a failure in a both a policy and personal sense.
The cavalier act of telling Mr. Wagoner “I find your plan to be inadequate”
certainly smacks of a man unhinged with a sense of power that can rewrite history. Telling the leader of a private company, you are done. Elliot Spitzer arranged the departure of Hank Greenburg in 2005 and look at what happened.
We need to examine the psychology of this President. The DEMs might have given us another highly flawed person like Bill Clinton.
We may be in more danger than we have previously thought.
A very good idea
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 10:18AM EST (link)I think it’s always valuable to study the personal psychology of any individual in a position of power.
I’m not sure I agree with your take on this though. I might agree that Obama has a tendency to support/value collective efforts over individual efforts because individuals have failed him so badly in the past.
I just don’t think it takes a dangerous psychology to see that Mr. Wagoner was not doing the best job. If he were doing so well he wouldn’t have come hat in hand to the taxpayers to begin with.
Could you give ONE example where Obama has championed the individual?
bk (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:29PM EST (link)“I might agree that Obama has a tendency to support/value collective efforts over individual efforts…”
It seems pretty obvious to me that when Obama says something like “Let me be clear: Government is not the answer to all our problems,” he’s really saying “Government IS the answer to all our problems, but I’m not supposed to say that.”
well there was Joe the Plumb.. er, well, uh.
kyle8 (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:38PM EST (link)nt
“Nothing works like freedom, Nothing succeeds like liberty”
Kyle
There you go.
larueladue (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 3:13PM EST (link)The money quote: “.. tendency to support/value collective efforts over individual efforts…” Sounds like a communist/socialist to me…
Just think: one of their own admitting to the man being a communist. You must have slept through part of the seminar…
Head Spinning
halp Tuesday, March 31st at 10:22AM EST (link)The more I listen to President Obama the more my head spins.
It was interesting to watch yesterday how Wall Street reacted to the news of Wagner’s government led extortion force out. I was watching gold too with the widget http://www.learcapital.com/exactprice and even it bumped up in what I figured was fear of what this new government control meant.
The whole idea of the government going in to the auto warranty business is what made my head nearly spin from my body. Can you imagine the paper work to get a car serviced? It’s crazy. It’s just adding to the deficit.
As this dies down I think the next shoe to drop is going to be the commercial real estate market. Banks are in a big way in that market so, I’m looking for that to be the next big crisis.
In typical "progressive" methods
youthgrunt (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 10:42AM EST (link)it will not be YOU who has to fill out the paperwork. It will be the auto-dealers. The idea is that you are populist by not putting a burden on the People, but rather on evil corporations.
We’ve been in that model for a long time. It is why Obama is saying that he will give tax cuts to 95% of the people, while he adds cap and trade on energy that will put a huge tax on 100% of the people because the cost must be passed on from the evil corporation to the consumer.
Francis, what do you make of the meme that GM bankruptcy means liquidation.
streetwise (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 11:01AM EST (link)I mean, the airlines have gone through it, some more than once, and most survived.
People need cars. Despite GM’s shrinking market share, that’s still a lot of cars. The capacity to make them should be a viable company, no?
Here's the deal, streetwise, from a labor relations perspective,
Achance (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 11:36AM EST (link)Francis can add the financial perspective.
Among other things, GM needs to reject its current labor agreement with the UAW. The seminal authority is the USSC’s holding in NLRB v. Bildisco & Bildisco, 465 U.S. 513 (1984). Bildisco sets out a process by which the debtor in possession can engage in bargaining with a union and essentially impose new wages, hours, and terms and conditions of employment thus abbrogating the current agreement. With the stakes here, that process would be long, nasty, and expensive. Francis has said that GM can’t get banks to put up the money to allow it to operate as a debtor in possession and thus shed its collective bargaining obligations. Thus, the Chapter 11 process of restructuring its collective bargaining agreements isn’t available to it as a practical matter; GM waited too long.
There is, of course, the political dimension. BHO and the Democrat Party are owned by organized labor. There is NO WAY that BHO’s NLRB is going to let any consequential employer use Chapter 11 to get out of a labor agreement.
If a company is forced into Chapter 7 proceedings and is liquidated, the purchasers must take on the existing labor agreements for their duration. It can then try to bargain its way to a sustainable agreement or the new owner can attempt to restructure the agreements through Chapter 11 bankruptcy – with all the political issues set out above.
So, only three things really work for the UAW and the DNC: GM can be liquidated and the new owner(s), assuming it is bought, can try to live, at least for awhile, with the CBA; GM can be nationalized – don’t rule it out, US automakers were essentially nationalized in WWII so there is a pattern and a precedent, or a deal can be struck with all the automakers that allows all of them to simultaneously shuck their legacy H&W and retirement costs and put them in the hands of the federal government and the taxpayers. I think this is ultimately what the good little communists at UAW and around BHO want. They can then use the “massive failure” of the auto industries benefit system as both the impetus and the infrastructure for nationalization of healthcare and retirement.
In Vino Veritas
Intriguing. I wonder if the government, as de facto debtor-in-possession,
streetwise (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 11:53AM EST (link)will basically screw the bondholders and retirees while cozying up to the needs of the currently employed UAW membership.
And will the taxpayers stand for it?
They'll screw all the "owners" and managers
Achance (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:06PM EST (link)of GM. No equity in the company will survive and management will be essentially a workers cooperative. Then the legacy costs will go into a trust that includes both legacy and current healthcare and retirement, which trust will be bankrupt at its inception. The “massive failure” that is the Trust will then be taken over by the government and subsidized by the taxpayers. That one is so large that it paves the way for the rest of us to surrender our personal health insurance and retirement plans to the new Obamacare Universal Sustenance and Support System.
In Vino Veritas
Intriguing. I wonder if the government, as de facto debtor-in-possession,
streetwise (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 11:53AM EST (link)will basically screw the bondholders and retirees while cozying up to the needs of the currently employed UAW membership.
And will the taxpayers stand for it?
There are a lot of ways to approach this question, streetwise
Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 11:53AM EST (link)To my mind, the critical problem GM would face in a bankruptcy would be no access to DiP financing. That’s why a bankruptcy would quickly become a liquidation. I remember thinking this through pretty carefully last December, and concluding there was no other way it could go.
Even though it’s nothing short of breathtaking to see a $200 bn company fall apart in mere days!
But tell me how this has played out in the airline biz. That’s a capital-intensive business if ever there was one. When the various major airlines passed through bankruptcy, what, in your experience, was the impact on their access to capital? More expensive, and more covenants, but not no access, I would imagine.
Whereas GM hasn’t been able to line up any access to private capital since last spring, if memory serves. The GMAC unit took down a pile of TARP cash, of course.
Unlike GM, Ford Motor has long been solvent, in the sense of there being no serious question they had the cash flow to cover their long-term obligations. To anyone with eyes, GM was insolvent even before their market collapsed last fall.
That’s why so many people were surprised, including me, when F hypothecated all their assets to arrange a $20 bn or so bank line, must have been two years ago now. (Corrections welcome.) It seemed like a bizarre move then. Now it seems like a genius trade.
The bankrupt airlines had an advantage, in that
streetwise (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:05PM EST (link)they had mobile capital, airplanes, to borrow against, collateral that is relatively seizable. Also, except during the steepest of recessions, airlines generate cash, so with liquidity covenants, the lenders feel relatively safe. So as long as the DIP is arranged in time, things are workable.
For airlines, to a degree, bankruptcy has been a magic wand. Since most assets are leased, and it is easy to reject leases in bankruptcy, the airlines were able to shed lots of older, uneconomical planes. They also terminated and dumped their underfunded pension plans on the PBGC, and their more affluent pensioners, mainly pilots, took a bath.
American avoided bankruptcy and was able to negotiate a consensual deal with its employees re pay cuts and work rule changes, and won some concessions from some of its lenders.
I get the eerie feeling that with GM, government will in effect provide the DIP, and do a politicized bankruptcy. Which means that stakeholders with voting and union dues paying potential, like union members, will sacrifice relatively little, And others- suppliers, lenders, retirees- will suffer disproportionately compared to a conventional bankruptcy.
Ugh!
I was absolutely astounded that GM never planned a DIP
streetwise (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:07PM EST (link)and just farted around while the crisis mounted, and then its management went crying to the feds.
They were always counting on government to bail them out.
The_Gadfly (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:31PM EST (link)To big to fail multiple times over. To big a chuck of the economy, too many workers located in small geographic areas, too many people affected across too much of the country. I liked Bush’s take on the GWoT, but he really reached EPIC FAIL when he extended the loans to the auto industry. They should have been forced into bankruptcy back then, when the unions would have had to take a bath with the rest of the people who drove the companies into the ground.
Up until October, they figured they had 10 months of cash left.
Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:52PM EST (link)They also figured there would be a fast economic recovery, and they’d be able to get a bank line easily enough.
They were totally, 100% blindsided by the collapse in demand. So was everyone else, though.
GM couldn't take the chance in an election year.
Achance (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 3:43PM EST (link)If they’d gone C-11 last year like they should have, all the UAW would have had to do was string out the contract abbrogation process through NLRB actions and court appeals; they could easily hold them hostage for a year or two. Everybody at the NLRB would be looking at a change of administration, figuring the D would likely win, and trying to curry favor with the UAW and the Ds. Then, on a Democrat victory, the UAW’s vengence would be terrible to behold.
Don’t ask me why I know this story so well!
In Vino Veritas
I was absolutely astounded that GM never planned a DIP
streetwise (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:07PM EST (link)and just farted around while the crisis mounted, and then its management went crying to the feds.
Apologies for double posts. The RS techno-gods are out to get me!
streetwise (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:09PM EST (link)I’m only hitting the button once.
If only all of Obama's rewards were of such short duration - 60 days - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 1:07PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
The bankrupt airlines had an advantage, in that
streetwise (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:04PM EST (link)they had mobile capital, airplanes, to borrow against, collateral that is relatively seizable. Also, except during the steepest of recessions, airlines generate cash, so with liquidity covenants, the lenders feel relatively safe. So as long as the DIP is arranged in time, things are workable.
For airlines, to a degree, bankruptcy has been a magic wand. Since most assets are leased, and it is easy to reject leases in bankruptcy, the airlines were able to shed lots of older, uneconomical planes. They also terminated and dumped their underfunded pension plans on the PBGC, and their more affluent pensioners, mainly pilots, took a bath.
American avoided bankruptcy and was able to negotiate a consensual deal with its employees re pay cuts and work rule changes, and won some concessions from some of its lenders.
I get the eerie feeling that with GM, government will in effect provide the DIP, and do a politicized bankruptcy. Which means that stakeholders with voting and union dues paying potential, like union members, will sacrifice relatively little, And others- suppliers, lenders, retirees- will suffer disproportionately compared to a conventional bankruptcy.
Ugh!
That's absolutely what will happen.
Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:55PM EST (link)Government will provide the DiP and drive the bankruptcy. GM is burning $5 bn a month. If the bankruptcy lasts 18 months, you do the math.
For months now, I’ve been telling anyone who would listen that the GM workout would consume between $50 bn and $100 bn taxpayer dollars, and would result in no significant labor cost reductions whatsoever.
'hedd, what is the bigger problem, pensions or health care
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 12:57PM EST (link)in terms of what makes it impossible for GM to survive?
Do you think that it is inevitable that we have to bail out the pension fund?
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
The silver lining, Mike, is Lawyer Hog Heaven!
streetwise (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 2:35PM EST (link)I believe United spent well over $300MM in legal and advisory fees re its bankruptcy.
GM is a larger and more complicated company. Can you IMAGINE what the bankruptcy expenses will be with the guv-mint footing the bill?
Go (north)west, young man. :>)
Charlotte is north by northwest of Columbia - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 2:41PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
Northwest to Detroit city, man! :>)
streetwise (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 2:42PM EST (link)nt
The Tar Heels must travel that route to pick up their next championship! - nt
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 2:46PM EST (link)Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I received a different message
novimir Tuesday, March 31st at 12:38PM EST (link)President Obama gave:
- Chrysler 30 days to complete a merger with Fiat or die.
- GM 60 days to go into a orderly bankruptcy
I thought the message was very clear.
Perhaps you weren't paying attention last December
Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 1:00PM EST (link)When GM and Chrysler LLC received TARP funds on Dec 29, the deal they signed obligated them to come up with an operating plan acceptable to the government by March 31, or else immediately return the funds.
The 60 day reprieve for GM is an acknowledgment that the original deal was just political garbage, and it signals that GM will get all the forbearance they ask for. There is essentially ZERO pressure on them to get their act together.
The 30-day deal horizon for Chrysler, on the other hand, is a death sentence. The Chrysler situation stinks to high heaven, because that company is owned by a handful of billionaires with tight connections to the government. They have plenty of money to pump into Chrysler, but they chose not to, figuring the taxpayers could be suckered into it. They were right.
Aren't Fiat unions run by, er, ex-communists?
streetwise (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 2:37PM EST (link)Now that’s a fix for Chrysler!
You got the wrong message.
Alitheia (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 1:03PM EST (link)Does your name mean “New World” or “New Peace”?
I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never be forced to live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Meaning of the name
novimir Tuesday, March 31st at 1:20PM EST (link)New world.
Also used on football sites to reflect my global location and my second class status as a commentator.
How is it second class? nt
Alitheia (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 1:23PM EST (link)I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never be forced to live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Second class location
novimir Tuesday, March 31st at 11:49PM EST (link)Just offer comments on EPL play, say your from North America and read how much respect you receive from UK citizens.
BTW no one has picked up on the meaning of the name except you.
Don't you think its more likely that Obama simply kicked the can
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 1:05PM EST (link)down the road and hasn’t yet decided what to do?
Although it does appear that the message the union got was dire as they are hot at Obama’s firing of the CEO and I am hopeful that Obama would insist on a pre-pacakged B/R in 60 days.
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I think he knows exactly what he wants to do
youthgrunt (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 1:24PM EST (link)and it is scary. The question that needs to be addressed is what a post-60 day GM looks like. My guess (which is just a guess) is that Congress will create a specific law for the “reorganization” of automakers under the bankruptcy code. It will take on various liabilities of the automakers (i.e. retirement and health insurance), but leave the basic labor agreements in place. I would guess there will be some “concessions” so that it can be said that “everyone” is making “sacrifices”.
Then there will be requirements on the mix or kind of vehicles in exchange for working capital.
Who knows, maybe more onerous things than that. Something must be put in place to insure that Ford falls into this eventually.
you make a strong case 'grunt - I don't disagree
Mike gamecock DeVine (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 1:38PM EST (link)I bet you are right on the sorid details to a great extent, and yes
it sucks
Mike DeVine’s Examiner.com, Charlotte Observer and The Minority Report columns
“One man with courage makes a majority.” – Andrew Jackson
I think he has the general scheme mapped out
aesthete (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 4:37PM EST (link)But I think that Obama’s also using the 60-day period to do two things: 1) formulate a more specific (crappy) plan with details, and 2) make it look like he really was giving GM and Chrysler a chance. I think that he’s going to take every chance that he gets to craft the image that he’s engaging in Hamletian hang-wringing over whether or not the government should be involved, so as to obscure the fact that, for whatever reason, he believes in a socialist, or even possibly pseudo-communist, form of market organization for the US, irrespective of whether or not a company is failing. It’s evident from his speeches that he wishes to obscure this fact, and I believe that this decision partly plays into the image he’s attempting to project.
The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice – G.K. Chesterton
Agreed
youthgrunt (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 5:34PM EST (link)The delay is also part of the “don’t do too much too fast” concern.
Hey, someone has to write this Automaker’s Reorganization Bill. It is going to be a sizable document that will take a while to write so that it can be crammed through Congress in 24 hours.
And the new CEO favors Bankruptcy
chancer Tuesday, March 31st at 1:19PM EST (link)So I guess it was money well spent? 14 billion to stop them going bankrupt in november just so they can go bankrupt in april?
http://www.cnbc.com/id/29960093
Does this mean I can get a free car?
Cheetah772 (Diary) Tuesday, March 31st at 1:53PM EST (link)I don’t have a car, and I think I’m entitled to one free car. In fact, I think every American is entitled to one free car.
Ridiculous? Yep, but you and I know it, but I’m not so sure if President Obama knows it….
Daniel 2:20 And he [God] changeth the times and seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding.