Initial Reaction to the Obama Mortgage Bailout Plan


He only announced it a few minutes ago in Mesa, Arizona, but let’s look at how the markets are reacting to Obama’s mortgage-relief plan.

The idea is to spend about $275 billion to give more money to Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and to facilitate refinancings of distressed mortgages.

It’s still too early to give you an actual analysis of the plan, but I did notice one very interesting thing. Obama’s warmup act was FDIC head Sheila Bair, who was been screaming about preventing foreclosures for a long time now. In her remarks, she said that voluntary mortgage relief hasn’t worked, and now it’s time to try something else. What that “something else” turns out to be, is of a course a matter of intense interest.

What did Mr. Market have to say about this? Prices for high-coupon mortgage-backed securities immediately tumbled. That makes sense if you assume that a lot of people who couldn’t refinance at lower rates before, will be able to now.

Yes, this raises interest rates. Yes, it makes the banking crisis worse by cutting the value of “toxic assets” still farther. Unintended consequences don’t always take so little time to appear.


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62 Comments Leave a comment

Maybe I'm clueless, but....

USNJIMRET (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 1:13PM EST (link)

Won’t allowing Judges to declare that the “value” of a home facing foreclosure is less then what was originally agreed upon by the ‘buyer’ and lender devalue other home in the area?
Or am I missing something?

As I understand it

djemi (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 1:17PM EST (link)

Appraisals are based on the value of similar sized homes in the area you live. So YES it will devalue other homes in the area

“If I can’t shoot rabbits,then I can’t shoot fascist”
“With age, comes Wisdom, but only if you are paying Attention, son” my ‘Old Man’
RS Help files (h/t JLenardDetroit) Grassroots in Michigan
Moes Strategy

 
 

Minor Issue

red4ever (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 1:21PM EST (link)

Ya’all can take on the larger issue of the Mortgage thingie. But, here is my beef. Everytime Mr. Green President wants to sign a major bill, he has to fly somewhere to do it. This wastes gas, time and money. Not to mention all the pollution from the flying and the pep rally.

The man works from home. Why can’t he sign it there? If he really must make a grandstand play, look out the freaking window of the White House. There is a whole city out there full of the people the stimulus is earmarked for (not people with jobs) and regular folks losing their homes. It would be cheaper to do this stuff right in DC.

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.
Dante

 

The good news here is

izoneguy (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 1:27PM EST (link)

In my hood foreclosures are rare.

The bad news – Obama and his team of misfits do not know what they are doing. Again – Obama will make this problem worse.
A problem he actually had a hand in creating.
Until banks are able to be run like a REAL business then
it will get even worse than it is. Federal laws that are
designed to create FAIRNESS do not.

Is it fair to banks to force them to loan money to bad risks?

Is it fair to encourage people to take on risk they cannot afford?

Not all people can afford to own a home.

There are plenty of other options available for these people.

Renting a home or apartment should be encouraged for

some of these folks. Until you take the non-performing loans

out of the market, nothing will solve this crisis.

So, throwing more money after bad money will AGAIN

only prolong the suffering. Let people who have the means

and have saved money to buy these foreclosed homes.

Getting Fanny & Freddie involved is like asking a

sex offender to baby sit your children.

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

 

Keep America Busy.

melpol Wednesday, February 18th at 1:33PM EST (link)

This is not the time to preach fiscal responsibility. Moral responsibility is more important. There are millions out of work and losing their homes. It would be wrong for Uncle Sam to look the other way. Trillions are needed and should be provided quickly. Let those that harbor alien ideologies day dream while formerly unemployed workers fill pot holes and paint school room walls. America will rise up again but until it does our work force must be kept busy.

You're making a bad joke, right??? NT

USNJIMRET (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 1:35PM EST (link)

There are grains of truth to this

Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 1:44PM EST (link)

I don’t buy the moral argument. I do buy the utilitarian one. We have to manage the disappearance of several trillion dollars in asset value.

You’ll never come up with a fair formula for doing that on a case-by-base basis. There just isn’t enough time to do that. The solution will be a fully-socialized one.

Aspects of this plan move in this direction. We’re trading away a near-term social and financial catastrophe, and accepting a low-growth future in return.

As painful as this is to say, it’s the right trade.

I disagree. It's a temporarily less painful 'trade'. Generally NOT a good option with Dem's. NT

USNJIMRET (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 1:48PM EST (link)

Any consideration of the Constitution?

youthgrunt (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 2:24PM EST (link)

It seems to me that there could be a “moral” argument, though I think a comment further down the list says to include responsibility in the moral code. A utilitarian argument can also be made.

The one I think should be made is a Constitutional argument. All of this crap is unconstitutional (i.e. point to a place where the Constitution enumerates the power of the Federal government to do this stuff).

I don’t care if it is “right” or if it will “work” if it goes against the Constitution.

 

I did not get to where I was on accepting a low-growth future...

DONTREADONME (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 7:19PM EST (link)

I will take the catastrophe, no body learns a gosh darn thing from re-establishing 2Trillion in lost value through quick replacement when it is reasonable to assume the value was never there in the first place. Your post leaves me perplexed, What?

Anyway, what I wrote above is my first reaction to what you said; I do not know any better to say whether this trade is right or wrong, time will tell if you are right. All I can say is I am ready to weather the financial and social catastrophe, it is called preparations for a rainy day.

 
 

melpol

jcheney Wednesday, February 18th at 1:44PM EST (link)

I think you were looking for Blue State blog

 

Yeah, thanks, bye.

Moe Lane (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 1:46PM EST (link)

Based on what he posted elsewhere, that was one strange dude.

 

How much can you get from the trillions? Any guarantee? - nt

Rod_Patrick (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 1:50PM EST (link)

Actually, it is time to preach moral responsibility

red4ever (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 1:59PM EST (link)

Like, don’t have more children than you can support. Don’t expect the STATE to care for your children. Don’t be a single parent by choice. If it does happen by accident, do your duty and take responsibility. It is not someone else’s problem, it’s yours.

Don’t spend more than you can make, expecting your neighbors to pay higher taxes to save you from yourself. Don’t buy a bigger house than you can afford, expecting the community to buy it back to keep a roof over your head. Don’t start a business, run it irresponsibily then expect the government to print more money to save it. Your responsibility to your workers begins with running your company in a way it stays competitive so they still have jobs. If you are in a union, your responsibility is too look to the long term future of the company, not your short term goals of more money now.

It is about moral choices you make. Do you take responsibility for your actions and duties towards others. Or do you expect others to take those responsibilities from you when you just don’t feel like caring anymore?

The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in times of great moral crisis, maintain their neutrality.
Dante

Amen

char (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 2:57PM EST (link)

Don’t forget to include “don’t have your union push for compensation that bankrupts your business” on the list of moral responsibility.

To me this is a handout to people who should never have taken on their home loans in the first place. It kind of figures that the beneficiaries of my tax money are the people who made poor decisions based on their inability to do basic math. As with octomom and GM/Chrystler it seems that government exists to help the people who do the wrong thing.

Only refinancing mortgages that are facing bankruptcy will play horribly and will alienate the 15% of homeowners who are upside down but can pay (but who can’t refinance to the current attractive rates). Someone needs to make a commercial that points out that Government is on the side of people who make bad decisions and does not help the responsible people.

 

red4ever, fiscal responsibility is moral responsibility in so many ways.

Rod_Patrick (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 3:09PM EST (link)

A politician can’t preach moral responsibility without teaching him/herself and his/her constituents about fiscal responsibility. Fiscal responsibility emanates from our own capacity towards moral responsibility.

Spending trillions of dollars that will come from taxes and loans from other countries, without any guarantee of the success, IS IMMORAL to me.

Giving the poor people fish and home (enabling measure) without teaching them (or alternatively: regulating them) how to fish and how to build their homes (capacity building) is an IMMORAL policy. It only makes the poor people as “hostage” of such policy. In the end, it will destroy their capacity to solve their own problems through their own God-given talents and skills.

Dependence to freebies coming from the politicians is tantamount to political slavery and is therefore immoral. This is exactly the strategy of the many governments in Latin America and other countries ruled by dictators.

In summary, Fiscal Responsibility and Moral Responsibility ALWAYS COME IN TANDEM.

PS: Note that my earlier post is a response on the other guy’s twisted definition of moral responsibility.

 
 
 

Melpol speaks on morality...hehe tooo funny...

Attack Mode (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 2:28PM EST (link)

This is the same guy who said that in response to President Obama being elected he would impregnate his live in girlfriend(who’s he kidding) for the sole purpose of her aborting the baby as celebration.

Everything you need to know about this character is in his last two sentences.

Allow me to translate:

Let those that harbor alien ideologies (read this as Conservatives) day dream while formerly unemployed workers (read as futture Democratic Voters) fill pot holes and paint school room walls. America (he really meant to spell that with a K) will rise up again but until it does our work force (Useful idiots /the disenfranchised) must be kept busy (in order to prevent any staged revolt).

The bold text is the interpretation of the actual typed text.

“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.

 
 

Under which economic theory

Adjoran (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 2:07PM EST (link)

is this “the right trade,” precisely?

It merely rewards the foolhardy, the incompetent, and the criminal by seizing both the current assets of the innocent and the future growth of everyone.

When combined with the other bailouts and “stimuli,” it will distort markets for a generation.

Great deal! Yeah, right . . .

You're activating a moral theory, not an economic one

Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 2:25PM EST (link)

And I completely agree with your moral theory, for what it’s worth.

The economic theory is that if you subtract two or more trillion dollars from asset values, you’re going to get a massive deflation. That’s going to reduce prices and wages across the economy. That puts even more pressure on economic activity, and the deflation spirals. Pretty soon, banks are pulling all their loans, businesses are folding, and millions of people are homeless and bankrupt.

This sucked the last time we tried it (1929-1933). We don’t want to do it again.

Pardon me, but maybe we need to taste Great Depression before we can learn hard lessons

Cheetah772 (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 2:41PM EST (link)

Like…greed doesn’t pay very well in long term.

I know greed is a basic motivation in a capitalist system, but I’d prefer to let all greedy men who overreached to fall on hard times.

No offense, but I think it’s about time to remake Wall Street into Begging Street.

CEOs and financial wizards need to be told in no uncertain terms that playing time is over, and we’re going to flush them down the toilet.

Let chips fall.

On the other hand, we’ll keep handing out money to corporations and banks, thus subsidizing the failure and permitting risky practices to go uncorrected.

Ah, New World!

Daniel 2:20 And he [God] changeth the times and seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding.

greed isn't a basic motivation of a capitalist sytem...

Attack Mode (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 3:01PM EST (link)

Greed is a basic failure of the fallen man.

Profit is a basic motivation of a capitalist system, but this hardly equates to greed.

Without the probability of creating profit, one would have no reason to market their labor. Without the incentive to market your labor people will retreat from society and go into a survivalist mode that will bring down the entire fabric of our nation.

The free market is the check and balance to the profit motivation. By allowing both failure and success you create a penalty for greed and an incentive for morally gained profits.

At least that is my understanding as a simple layman.

But the main point that I wanted to get across is that Capitalism and Greed are not dependent on each other, and if you think they are then you have already given in to the leftists on the ideological point.

You shouldn’t do that because their ideology is just plain wrong.

“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.

Don't worry, we're both laymen on economics.

Cheetah772 (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 3:13PM EST (link)

I admit that I could be wrong on this one.

However, perhaps a better word would be ambition. I think we both agree that ambition and greed are not interchange words, both work differently. Even so, both ambition and greed are driving forces behind capitalism and free market principles.

At risk of sounding too simplistic, I think if there is plenty of ambition and no greed, then it’s an ideal economic world. On the other hand, if there is plenty of greed and no ambition, then it’s a very corrupt world to live in.

I guess you’re right in a sense that greed is the exact opposite of ambition, to create profits by any means, even if they are objectionable and questionable. At this point, maybe it is safe to say Wall Street is up to this point largely ruled by greed rather than ambition.

And in my view, permitting bailouts is paving the way for greed to be institutionalized. This is indeed a fatal mistake, and we’ll be paying that price for a long time to come.

Daniel 2:20 And he [God] changeth the times and seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding.

Agreed....

Attack Mode (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 3:30PM EST (link)

You used ambition and I used profit, but I think we are saying pretty much the same thing.

Now I think it is important to point out that Capitalism and Free Market principles are two different things. Although they are symbiotic in their relationship. Capitalism is an economic model based on profit motives and growth, correct me if I am wrong. Free Market principles are the acknowledgment of the risk/reward, failure/success relationship within the Capitalist model. Without the Free Market principles there to be a check on Capitalism being given over to greed and sustainable failure, Capitalism itself becomes no better that Socialism.

The freedom to fail must be present in a Capitalist system, or the system itself will crumble upon itself. To me this is what we are experiencing right now in our Nation. We have retreated from Free Market principles since 1988, before which we had a short return to more Free Market principles 1980-1988. Before that we had the four years of Carter, definitely not a Free Marketeer, I don’t think I need to recount his failures within the economic realm.

Bottom line, Profit is good, Greed is bad, Free Markets are a self correcting check on greed being capable of perverting Capitalism.

Agreed?

“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.

agreed on one condition....

Cheetah772 (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 3:36PM EST (link)

That you have to root for Packers! Just kidding…

You know, Churchill once said that democracy is the least worst model of all governmental theories. I think that can be applied here economically. Capitalism is the least worst of all economic theories, it’s a pity that it’s about to be gutted by Obama and his entourage of liberals.

Daniel 2:20 And he [God] changeth the times and seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding.

heh...very true Cheetah....

Attack Mode (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 3:38PM EST (link)

And I actually like the Packers….3rd favorite team in the NFL.

#1 Raiders baby!!!!

#2 Pittsburgh

What can I say…I like smash mouth football.

“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.

 
 

depends on how you define "greed"

JSobieski (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 4:18PM EST (link)

I define greed more broadly, so I would disagree that greed is bad—greed is close cousin to ambition, and abition is necessary for our survival.

Tale of two fraternity brothers.

My fraternity became involved in a highly competitive situation with anoither fraternity to raise money for charity (medical research). The competition became very competition, with our two fraternities pretty much outraising the rest of the University.

One of my fraternity brothers didn’t particularly care about the charity, he wanted to beat the other fraternity into the ground. He was our top fundraiser, and he did it all by canning in the streets.

Another fraternity brother was a kind hearted soul, and really focused on the philanthropy. He raised a lot less money for charity than the guy whose primary goal was to say “we beat them #&*&%@” at the moment of truth.

Yes Virginia, greed can be good, so long as it is played within the framework of rules.

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

Sorry but I don't really think I agree with you, greed is not good, ever...

Attack Mode (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 4:43PM EST (link)

Greed is evil along with:

Lust
Sloth
Gluttony
Wrath
Envy
and my favorite…Pride

Words have meanings and greed is pretty specific. Greed is about gathering not only more than you need, but more than you deserve. The way I see it, those who are merely ambitious can accrue as much wealth as they want, because their ambition usually comes out in some form of labor, which is deserving of payment.

Some of the greediest people in our nation are career welfare recipients and career politicians, both of which seek to accrue either more than they need or more than they deserve, sometimes both.

Ambition on the other hand is a desire for activity, rank, fame, or power. Ambition can be a force for good, greed can’t. Ambition stops where greed begins.

“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.

I agree Aaron, to a point

Vegas_Rick (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 4:53PM EST (link)

“Greed is about gathering not only more than you need, but more than you deserve.”

Uncheck and irresponsible greed is bad. No doubt. However….

I think it can be dangerous to define what someone needs or deserves.
For example, this country has social security. We are forced to contribute. But I can easily see the liberals saying that people who have fat retirement accounts that they worked and saved for, don’t “need” or “deserve” social security payments when the time comes.

Is a guy greedy for accumulating wealth so that his kids can have things he didn’t have as a kid, even if he didn’t need them?

Unchecked ambition is equally dangerous IMHO.

“God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.”- Billy Currington

“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘press on’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.” Calvin Coolidge.

Vegas...I think you are missing the point...

Attack Mode (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 5:11PM EST (link)

First your analogy doesn’t fit, Social Security is something that the individual paid into, regardless of need, they meet the deserve criteria right then and there. That said, I don’t believe SS should exist at all in it’s current form, but that is for an entirely different reason than the possible impact of greed on that system.

Second, if a guy is accumulating wealth so that his kids can have the things he didn’t, he is not being greedy, but if he is demanding that he be paid more than his labor is worth, then yeah he is being greedy.

But we are getting far from the original point, the point is that Free Market principles are a natural check to greed. The free market allows for the individual to negotiate his wage for the labor he will provide to his employer. This is where the need/deserve argument is held, not some government entity or committee.

Lastly, in a Capitalist system which yields to the Free Market Principles the wealth accumulated could be leveraged to produce more wealth via investment. The additional wealth created by investment also negates the greed argument because the individual is likely to be investing in something other than himself, although he will see gains from the investment so will those who are employed by the company or industry in which he invested.

So I will state again that greed is never good along with:

Lust
Sloth
Gluttony
Wrath
Envy
and my favorite…Pride

“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.

Aaron, I didn't miss the point, I missed the context.

Vegas_Rick (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 5:24PM EST (link)

I whole heartedly agree. If someone’s demanding more in compensation than they are willing or able to return in productivity, they ARE selfish and greedy. That’s my problem with the minimum or “living” wage.

“God is great, beer is good and people are crazy.”- Billy Currington

“Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan ‘press on’ has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.” Calvin Coolidge.

Agreed Vegas....

Attack Mode (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 5:31PM EST (link)

And you are right…I should have said context instead of point. Thanks for the correction.

And the minimum wage was one of the first steps away from Free Market principles. It rewards laziness and a complete lack of ambition. Furthermore it has destroyed the job market for the young and trapped them in a cycle that doesn’t promote initiative or competition as a means to better their situation.

“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.

 
 
 
 

again, it depends on your definition of "greed"

JSobieski (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 7:56PM EST (link)

You define greed to be contingent upon what you deserve/earn.

Others include into the definition of greed a factor of “need”

You and I would agree that greed is bad, but that Bill Gates is not (necessarily) greedy.

Others would say that Gates is greedy, by mere fact that accumulates wealth and continues to strive to accumlate wealth that is beyond any reasonable sense of proportion with respect to what he can consume.

I am not saying we should let liberals define “greed” but surely you must be aware of the more expansive definition.

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

JSobieski..aware yes...accept no...

Attack Mode (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 8:24PM EST (link)

I think it is time that we reject these false definitions, precisely because they are false.

Your example is even a easy one to knock down. Bill Gates has given a great deal back to not only charity but the the economy. His business keeps a great number of people employed. Now i disagree with his politics, but I don’t think he is really greedy, but he is rather close to the line, still on the safe side for now.

But here is the real kicker JSobieski, we don’t live in a Free Market Capitalist economy, haven’t really for a while, and that makes it all the more difficult to tell the difference between the truly greedy and the truly ambitious.

The Free Market separates the wheat from the chaff, without it corruption and greed will become commonplace.

The continued blurring of the line is the problem. So, even though I am aware of the “more expansive definition”, I still reject it.

Greed is bad. Deadly.

“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.

ok Aaron greed is bad. As to how I get my next meal it's not relevant

pilgrim (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 8:47PM EST (link)

To quote Adam Smith:
” It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest. The individual is driven by private gain but is led by an invisible hand to promote the public good, which was no part of his intention.”


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

ok pilgrim

Attack Mode (Diary) Thursday, February 19th at 10:09AM EST (link)

That quote was pretty much the same point that I was writing. Sorry I didn’t have any information on how to get your next meal, but I still believe that it is relevant. We are in the middle of a national debate about which economic model we are going to be based on. Are we going to become a socialist, keynesian, or will we go back to a real Free Market Capitalist system.

My point is the our system isn’t greedy, it keeps greed at bay because those who get greedy tend to fail, or a competitor under cuts his prices which causes him to fail. Now as long as the failure occurs there is a chance the individual can learn from there mistake. If the government saves the business, the greed will only spread, since the consequences no longer contain risk.

Every single one of the Seven Deadly Sins has relevancy in todays political discussions. I will not spill the beans right now because I got inspired by this thread to write a new diary about it. But I will say that these (the 7 Deadly Sins) are values that we should instill in everyone, and we don’t have to do it in a way that is religious*. Values, Principles, Integrity, these are the themes that will produce good electoral results, but more importantly good government.

Anyhow, I have a diary coming soon that will explain it all.

* I have no problem with spreading a religious message, but I can respect other Republicans and Conservatives who may be atheist, or agnostic who would rather avoid a direct approach like that, instead choosing to stick with a common morality argument that holds truth regardless of religion. Either way I am flexible, if they are on board either way then I would say don’t hide it if you are living it and proud of it, shout it to the mountain tops.

“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.

I'm looking forward to that diary, Aaron

pilgrim (Diary) Thursday, February 19th at 8:01PM EST (link)

We do pretty much agree on this subject. You have hit the nail on the head that the meddling by the Federal government that has the effect of removing risk taking is a big problem.

Here is a little pet peeve of mine. There are organizations that push out flyers encouraging the reader to only purchase a product from the businesses on their flyer list. They maintain that these are the only good businesses because they are Christian and moral. I refuse to limit myself to only purchasing what I want from their list. I will purchase what I like at the price I am comfortable paying from whomever. We are all sinners, and I am not going to let moral judgments prevent me from making my business decisions on what product I buy. I will make my business decisions on what I buy and from whom be based solely on the quality and price of the product.


Activists Taking Action: Unified Patriots

 
 
 

"greed" is not that cut and dried

JSobieski (Diary) Friday, February 20th at 2:43AM EST (link)

The dictionary definitions are as follows:

noun
1. excessive desire to acquire or possess more (especially more material wealth) than one needs or deserves
2. reprehensible acquisitiveness; insatiable desire for wealth (personified as one of the deadly sins) [syn: avarice]

I think whether or not greed is bad depends on what definition you pick

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

JSobieski...it is as subjective as you allow it to be...

Attack Mode (Diary) Friday, February 20th at 9:19AM EST (link)

To me both of those definitions equate to bad, not good. YMMV

“Land of the Free and Home of da Whopper” Peter Griffin…Family Guy

conform and celebrate diversity….or else!!!

Steel-Belted Radial Right Winger

“I’ll create 5 million jobs from out of unicorn farts and pixie dust” Justatron paraphrasing Obamessiah…yes I love it that much.

Some would say that Bill Gates is greedy under definition #1

JSobieski (Diary) Sunday, February 22nd at 2:34AM EST (link)

He definitely had a desire to acquire more than he “needs”

I agree that greed is a sin, but there are different definitions of greed. I would say that the line is crossed when the desire is primarily to obtain rather than to earn, but it can be a fine line.

What if I want to and do build the number #1 auto company in the world.
What if I want to and do build the number #1 auto comapny in the world, and other companies are forced to lay off workers?
What if I want to and do build the number #1 auto company in the world, and part of my business plan is to put my competitors out of business sp I can have a dominant market position?

We would all agree that there is nothing wrong with the first, and that the second scenario is kind of inevitable. But what about the third? Is greed exclusively a motivational attribute such that you can’t tell whether someone is greedy or not until you know what they are trying to do?

My point is that greed is one of those things you can pray about, go into counseling for, do a lot of thinking about, and realize that there is grey there.

The difference between sinful greed and Bill Gates is not always clear, and no doubt Bill Gates himself has crossed that line (as we are all sinners)

Does greed require an outside victim? Is it possible to be greedy if one is on a desserted island? If greed does require a victim, how does one distinguiish between the good competitor layoffs and the bad competitor layoffs?

I think greed is a motivation based characterization that is not objectively detected.

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

No one is arguing that this is good.

ColbyS Wednesday, February 18th at 2:33PM EST (link)

I think the argument is that the choices are bad vs worse and the stimulus is ‘bad’. I think even a lot of Republicans like myself agree that the government needs to take action and increase its debt to stimulate the economy. The difference between us and Dems is that we want to accomplish this by cutting a payroll tax or other government funding device to put money back into consumers hands, while the Dems want to tax and dole out cash as they see fit and play referee as to how the money is spent.

I would love it if the guilty perpetrators of this mess were severable and could be allowed to fall like dead branches from a healthy tree. Unfortunately the reality is that they will pull out bark on their way down and basically strike every other branch as they go. The whole banking system is so absurdly interwoven none can fall without dragging other dependents along for the ride, and if the govt doesn’t take some kind of action then we will all feel some massive ripple effects from the collapse.

 
 

The Numbers: 275 Billion equals 275,000 times 1 million

GregInFla (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 2:19PM EST (link)

So, this is equivalent to giving 1 million mortgage holders $275,000 EACH!. Or 2 million mortgagees $137,500 each. Looked at in these terms, this is very expensive. (i>Or 5 milllion people getting $55,000 each. How many bad mortgages held by legal US Citizens are there?

And no, I won’t be one of the 5 million.


– A true evolutionist would let endangered species die off. Think about it.
– The sign outside the courthouse said no signs allowed. So I took it down.
– Atlas Shrugged is now on the non-fiction aisle at Amazon.

Greg, I get your point.

Rod_Patrick (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 2:25PM EST (link)

Problem is whether the money will trickle down to the concerned families.

Fearful forecast:

The money will just stay at the hands of the same people who caused the mortgage problem, including some corrupt officials at Fannie and Freddie.

The people will remain homeless.

 

$200 bn for Fannie/Freddie

Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 2:28PM EST (link)

I could be wrong, but I’m reading the proposal as providing $75 bn for direct foreclosure relief. The other $200 bn goes to Fannie and Freddie to fund losses in their portfolios (which together amount to $5 trillion).

Francis, clarify the $5 trillion please. - nt

Rod_Patrick (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 3:52PM EST (link)

Fannie & Freddie pooled, issued, & guaranteed $5.5 trillion

6eorge Jetson (Diary) Thursday, February 19th at 10:21AM EST (link)

of mortgages. If you don’t have a jumbo mortgage, chances are that your loan originator sold the cash flows (principal + interest) to Fannie and Freddie, while keeping the servicing rights (for about 1/2 per cent per year on the outstanding principal balance).

I) Fannie & Freddie then pooled your mortgage cash flows with others, and then issued a securitized claim (which could be found by paying Bloomberg subscribers under tickers such as FN 123456). One of the terms of the issuance was the guarantee of those cash flows to investors, for which I’m sure Fannie & Freddie charged a (way too small) fee. To cover any losses, Fannie & Freddie set aside a nominal $2 billion, but by operating as a “Government Sponsored Enterprise,’ the market perceived that in the event of overwhelming losses, the gov’t would step in to back Fannie/Freddie, as evidenced by the below commercial bank market financing Fannie & Freddie were able to obtain on their own debt. (Yet, the infamous Dec 21 NYT article whines about the hyper-competitive subprime market of which Fannie/Freddie had a 1/3 share.)

The shortfall below 5.5 trillion of guarantees is one source of Fannie/Freddie’s losses.

II) The other major Fannie/Freddie activity was to purchase over $1 trillion of mortgages for their own portfolios at leveraged capital ratios far greater than commercial banks and comparitable to the investment banks.

Even if these mortgages, purchased to be held in Fannie’s & Freddie’s own portfolios, have cash flow guarantees (which would be a cause for loss in part 1 but not here), they are trading on the market at a higher premium (i.e. a higher market demanded yield, often expressed a a yield “spread” to safer Treasurys, which mathematically can only come about through lower prices on the mortgages). And hence, Fannie/Freddie, like the commercial banks, are also suffering from mark-to-market losses.

As to the composition of losses I) and II) above, I do not know.

Francis, what you're describing is like the Enron strategy.

Rod_Patrick (Diary) Thursday, February 19th at 2:22PM EST (link)

Summarizing all your details, the government is absorbing all the the financial losses of the sub-prime market through Fannie and Freddie. [To add into your analysis, the whole strategy is to tie up almost the banks, especially the big ones which are being forced to buy/absorb small, losing banks. This means that if one fails, the rest of the system will fail since everyone is is being forced to participate.*]

In the process, Fannie and Freddie is acting as a typical GSE of Communist China Model. Like in China, the losses in this strategy can be hidden for some period of time since the Government is acting as supreme guarantor which willing to absorb the risks and losses.]

With the Mark-to-market accounting standard still in place, Fannie/Freddie can hide its losses by making sure that the losses in one portfolio is transferred to other non-so-bad portfolios (Enron style). But they can only do that for some period of time. It will also bust in end like any other bubbles.

Fannie and Freddie’s next failure will be a catastrophe of global proportion.

It will surely happen if Fannie and Freddie don’t get at least 50-75% of the their expected recoveries from the bailout of bad portfolios. Suspension of Mark-To-Market accounting by SEC under FA157 in such case won’t help either.

Fannie and Freddie are really acting like a GSE version of Enron.. It’s really a sure formula for another Great Depression. Sigh!

*A Large Bank CEO has just revealed the intimidations being made by the Treasury Department in its private meetings with the CEOs of large banks.]

 
 
 
 

Depends on where the distressed mortgages are at

char (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 3:03PM EST (link)

Look at it this way, here in CA you can find mortgages that are underwater by $350,000 on a single house. The same $350,000 would refinance 4-8 times as many homes in a different state (say Indiana).

I agree that the dollar figure doesn’t seem to add up. NYTimes reported that there are 3 million homeowners who could qualify so we are talking ~$90,000 for each home.

 
 

More giveaways to the inept - All this will do is encourage people to stop paying their mortgages

izoneguy (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 2:40PM EST (link)

The questions found in the letter from Cantor and Boehner to Obama include:

• What will your plan do for the over 90 percent of homeowners who are playing and paying by the rules?

• Does your plan compensate banks for bad mortgages they should have never made in the first place?

• Will individuals who misrepresented their income or assets on their original mortgage application be eligible to get the taxpayer funded assistance under your plan?

• Will you require mortgage servicers to verify income and other eligibility standards before modifying mortgages?

• What will you do to prevent the same mortgages that receive assistance and are modified from going into default three, six or eight months later?

• How do you intend to move forward in the drafting of the legislation and who will author it?

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

 

reparations

10ksnooker (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 2:42PM EST (link)

Most of this money goes to those who should have never been allowed to buy a house in the first place.

This racism, bigotry and get whitey. Obama learned well from Rev Wright.

Those that played by the rules, get the shaft.

 

Alright

posterposter Wednesday, February 18th at 2:44PM EST (link)

What is the rational thing to do as an investor? Eat losses to the tune of 40%? I don’t see how the market will ever recover from this so it feels fruitless to maintain the “buy and hold” BS we swallowed up to now.

 

House Prices

gardenstateeric (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 2:55PM EST (link)

House prices are going to fall until they get to a market clearing level. Any “plan” that ignores this iron law is going to be counterproductive and/or a waste of money. Don’t fight the market kids, you won’t win. If you can’t afford your house . . . move out. Default, lose the home, and rent something until you can rebuild your savings and credit to the point where you can afford to own again. Tens of millions of Americans rent and millions move house every year, this is hardly some sort of economic death sentence. Clinging in futility to a home you can’t afford is a poor personal decision, and enabling Americans to do that kind of clinging is poor housing policy, Gosh, we can actually celebrate the return of housing affordability in this country. That’s a very positive side to this crack up.

 

Francis, what am I missing?

streetwise (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 3:00PM EST (link)

If the principal risk of the high coupon bonds diminishes, because of a perception of increased solvency, why wouldn’t prices go UP, lowering yields because of the decreased risk. Is the refinancing risk priced that extravagantly?

I assume it depends on the actual MBS contract

ReallyBored Wednesday, February 18th at 3:38PM EST (link)

but a cramdown might be forcing the coupon payment itself down. If the MBS contract says that the holder receives a % of the payments on such-and-such mortgages and not a coupon rate as a direct % of face, then a payment reduction on the underlying mortgages directly reduces the coupon payments. So the risk is down, but the cash flow is also down. You can reasonably argue that the drop in coupon payments is larger than the risk reduction, so the cash flow drops faster than the risk reduction lowers the discount rate.

 
 

Why is Obama announcing using the TARP funds and not Geitner?

char (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 3:05PM EST (link)

Maybe Obama realizes that he will get the benefit of the doubt from his fawning devotees in the press while that anything Geitner says will actually be scrutinized?

 

The Politics Of This Plan

DavidSage (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 3:49PM EST (link)

The amount of people who were responsible and bought a home they could afford far outnumber the irresponsible ones, by a factor of about 10 to 1.

The people that were responsible and lived within their means are going to be ENRAGED at the 5-10% of Americans that racked up debt like drunken sailors are now going to get taxpayer dollars.

I would not want my name attached to this plan. Republicans have an overwhelming majority on their side with this issue.

 

Still not a lot of consideration of the mark to market accounting rule

JSobieski (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 4:12PM EST (link)

The only reason why 10% default rates have resulted in asset values plummetting as they have is that the mark to market rule makes no sense when applied to illiquid assets.

I bought a home in 2005 for $1M after putting $200k down. The house is probably worth $700k today, which means I am $100k underwater.

According the mark to market, I am insolvent. If I was a bank, I could not loan out a cent even though I have no cash flow problems.

Isn’t the mark to market rule making the financial crisis 10 time worse than it would otherwise be?

My rules of the road for primary season.
Rule #1: Vote for YOUR first choice in the primaries
Rule #2: Vote for the R in the general.
Rule #3: Don’t let anyone convince you to violate Rule #1 or Rule #2
Rule #4: When in a center-right argument, reaffirm Rules #1-#3–it will help us all to get along better.
Rule #5: If you are using the language of the left, you probably aren’t furthering conservativism
Rule #6: The priority is issues first, candidates second, and supporters third. Nobody is bigger than the issues. Conversely, if you spend your time focusing on supporters, you are wasting everyone’s time.

STOP THE MADNESS!

A reduction in the rate of spending increases is NOT a cut!
In-state tuition for illegals is NOT amnesty!
Requiring someone to pay their medical bills is NOT an individual mandate!
Reducing tax rates is NOT a tax increase!

 

I am incensed!

sdan (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 4:38PM EST (link)

This has gotten completely out of hand! I can not believe this! The only people who don’t get bailed out are the ones who are actually doing the right thing? No thank you I already got screwed for doing the right thing before Katrina and all my government could tell me was you had insurance so we can’t give you anything until we know what the insurance company is giving you. Meanwhile every frikkin person who didn’t do right was making out like a bandit. I was required to pay off my morgage and then I got screwed by the Road Home program because they didn’t take that into account and we got next to nothing from them.
So my question is who do I report the federal government to for raping my family? I have had enough!

 

How about nationalizing real estate?

John E. (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 4:53PM EST (link)

I have heard it suggested that the fastest and cheapest way for the government to short circuit the economic crisis is to buy up surplus housing and bull doze it under. And that’s a shovel ready plan if there ever was one.

But seriously, instead of nationalizing banks and some peoples’ mortgages, I might find it agreeable for the government invest my tax dollars in nationizing real estate. Any private capital waiting to buy real estate at the bottom would be drawn in too. There is the graft magnet problem of managing all that real estate while waiting for the time in which it can be sold for a profit. But…

 

Kelsey Grammer: Stimulus and Bailout Laws Reward ‘Evil-Doers’

izoneguy (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 5:48PM EST (link)

http://cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=43697

“It may not be a popular position to take,” said Grammer, “but I honestly believe that the bill is fraught with the idea that those who did the most damage to our country – from the bottom up and the top down – are the ones that are actually going to get the most rewards.”

The point cannot be made often enough: Modern liberalism, as embodied in the Obama presidency, is the defender of the status quo. And the status quo is a road to economic ruin. Political forces cannot redistribute the wealth that the economic system does not produce.

 

This is just the latest turkey of an idea.

texas214 (Diary) Wednesday, February 18th at 8:46PM EST (link)

Trying to prop up house prices in any form will never work (period end of story). Buyers don’t care what your deal is with the government, they are going to pay market value at the time the house is on the market. I fthe investor house is for sale at 60% of recent value and the current occupant owes 80% he is still under water on his house no matter what the rate is.

The best thing to do is for the government to get out of the way and let the market self correct as quickly as possible. The government should only be involved by making sure a “reasonable” level of financing is available to qualified buyers.

A good analogy is that; it snows on the mountains in the Rockies, melts into the Colo River, and as headed to the ocean it is stopped by Hoover Dam. No matter how you slow the water it is still going to go through the Dam, albeit at a slower rate it IS going to get to the ocean. The government needs to get out of the way, allow the water to flow down hill and to get to the ocean so it can snow again on the mountain.

 

Time to pull the plug

popdaddy Wednesday, February 18th at 9:55PM EST (link)

Ok, I’m playing catch up, I lost my job Jan. 16 and worked hard to find a new job. Started yesterday, Feb17, so have been busy today.

WTF, does this latest socialist proposal by the domestic terrorist-in-chief have to be approved by Congress?

The proposal has to be stopped. This socialist concept is piling on the pork spending bill. People have to be held responsible for stupid.

It’s time to take back America before we lose all.

 

Isn't all of this in response to the expiration of the Bush tax cuts?

Vaughn Harold (Diary) Thursday, February 19th at 8:59AM EST (link)

Haven’t heard much about that lately!