I’m indebted to reader Olivier Strauch, who wrote to us at RedState to express some reservations he has about the admittedly radical tax-holiday proposal that I made here.
Mr. Strauch’s pithy but resonant rhetorical style defies summarization, so I’ll quote him literally (with one minor redaction; I changed a crude sexual reference to a crude gastronomic one):
“Seriously. Your answer to the devastation caused by the dogma of rightwing deregulation of everything is.. to cut 100% of federal taxes?
So how do we pay for your favorite President Bush’s most brilliant achievement – the war in Iraq? Shall our troops eat dust and drink happy thoughts, and shoot magic bullets filled with your pee and propelled by wingnut farts? How about Afghanistan? How about border guards, customs, INS, the FBI, the CIA, Guantanamo, federal prisons, airport security, and all the other things even disphits as braindead s you agree government needs to do?
Seriously – you are a [overeating] over the top, blue-ribbon winning, one in a million tool.
Please never, ever reproduce.”
Thus Olivier Strauch. His points are thoughtful and well taken, but I feel that they don’t go nearly far enough as regards the spending priorities of the Federal government. More critically, Mr. Strauch appears not to appreciate one of the finer points of Federal taxation, that actually is key to my argument.
In the first place, it’s hardly the case that defense and war are the bulk of what the Federal government spends money on, as Mr. Strauch appears to imply. In fact, by my reckoning, spending for the Iraq and Afghanistan adventures amounts to a mid-single-digit percentage of the Federal budget. (Although the new President has pledged to sharply escalate the Afghanistan war, so the financial commitment to Afghanistan will probably grow.)
But the really important point is this: a great many people fail to appreciate that the Federal Government does NOT need to collect tax revenues in order to spend money.
Think about that very carefully. Unlike state and local governments, the Federal government prints its own money. They can spend literally any amount of money that they wish, simply by causing the money to appear in the accounts which the Treasury maintains for this purpose at commercial banks around the country. They create money simply by changing numbers in computer files, a costless and friction-free process.
In a fiat money regime, there is one and only one reason for the Federal Government to collect tax revenue, and that is to control the size of the overall money supply. (More precisely, there is only one reason to collect taxes which is responsive to the exigencies of monetary policy. It’s also true that the government collects taxes to pursue non-economic objectives, for example, in order to punish success and reward indolence.) Ordinarily the effect of having the government spend more than 20% of GDP without collecting any tax revenue at all, would be to cause a hyperinflation, and severely distort resource-allocation flows in the private-sector economy.
But we’re now in a time of severe, incipient deflation. Inflation is very far from the key concern. It indeed would be a DIRECT and IMMEDIATE solution to the economic problem to generate a large pulse of monetary inflation, which would happen if the government were to temporarily but fully abate all tax collections.
And finally, I’m appreciative of Mr. Strauch’s personal suggestion as regards reproduction, which I will take under advisement.
Steve Maley
Neil Stevens
Daniel Horowitz
Isn't this happening, sort of?
chaney (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 10:59AM EST (link)Rather than stopping taxation and continuing to spend a couple trillion, they’re collecting a couple trillion in taxes, but spending a trillion more. They’ve still got a trillion bucks appearing out of nowhere.
Or am I way off here?
Was this emailed to Mr. Strauch?
Crowe (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 11:03AM EST (link)I believe the address was [xxxxxxx] but I could have gotten it wrong.
Editor’s Note: Pending further review by the Directors, I redacted the email address out of this comment. RedState has a policy of not publishing personal information. -Francis Cianfrocca
“We sleep soundly in our beds only because
rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those who would do us harmDear Leader Obama gives us leave to do so.”Nope, it's olivier
Crowe (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 11:04AM EST (link)It’s [xxxxx]… I left out that second i.
And redacted again. -FC
“We sleep soundly in our beds only because
rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those who would do us harmDear Leader Obama gives us leave to do so.”Huh?
NightTwister (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 11:28AM EST (link)Color me confused.
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. – Winston Churchill
Ok, my apologies to Crowe
Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 12:35PM EST (link)We did publish Olivier Strauch’s email address on an earlier thread. It’s olivier.strauch@gmail.com.
I wanted to err on the side of caution, so I apologize to you, Crowe, for redacting your comments.
no worries...
Crowe (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 1:08PM EST (link)I thought it might be controversial, but I knew it was in the previous posting, so I figured I’d toss up there and see if it stuck.
No apologies necessary. Had it been redacted permanently, that would have been fine too. Just wanted to push the option.
Recent political happenings have been pushing me to be increasingly active and politically aggressive once again. Not sure if it’s a good thing just yet.
“We sleep soundly in our beds only because
rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence upon those who would do us harmDear Leader Obama gives us leave to do so.”Everyone's an expert
Marcus_Traianus (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 11:17AM EST (link)I have worked in the industry for over 23 years and never seen so many so-called experts. All of a sudden, they are all Hayek proteges’ and have read “Wealth of Nations” gratuitously.
However, most of these folks are partisan acolytes who wouldn’t know the basic precepts of economic theory. Cripes, even the so-called “business channel experts” display their partisan leanings by trying to twist economic theories and cycle trends- it’s digusting and dangerous. It has even permeated Fox, where the liberals where trying to redefine “Pork”- expect that trens to continue now, especailly since Schumer says “we don’t care about pork”. I would like to run against him in the next election just to ride that comment like Secretariat.
Just keep doing what you do blackie. I may not always agree, but your pieces are at least grounded in plausible, factual theories. Ignore the Usefull Idiots.
“Both of our political parties, at least the honest portion of them, agree conscientiously in the same object—the public good; but they differ essentially in what they deem the means of promoting that good. One side believes it best done by one composition of the governing powers; the other, by a different one. One fears most the ignorance of the people; the other, the selfishness of rulers independent of them. Which is right, time and experience will prove.”.Thomas Jefferson
I had to stop reading and put it on audiobook
Alberta (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 2:55PM EST (link)Mr Smith, with his 1000+ page book in size 8 font, kicked my ass.
Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God’s side, for God is always right.
Abraham Lincoln
There's one other way the government can get money...
fmaidment (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 11:25AM EST (link)…and they do it without raising taxes (though it has the same effect on the money supply as taxation).
They borrow.
We’ve already borrowed over $10 trillion. Obama wants us to borrow (and pay debt service) on a trillion more…
Mr. Strauch appears to be an idiot.
Follow Me on Twitter
“I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.”
– - Thomas Jefferson, to Archibald Stuart, 1791
$10 trillion of borrowing... not quite
Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 2:31PM EST (link)Before this fiscal year, US public debt stood at $6.3 trillion. Obama’s first year will increase it by almost a third.
The commonly-quoted $10 trillion figure is the US national debt. It includes the payroll tax surpluses that have accumulated since the mid-Eighties (“Social Security Trust Fund”). But this liability is meaningless because the government owes it to itself, so it never actually needs to be paid.
$6.3 trillion (40% of GDP), soon to be 60% of GDP, is the relevant figure to use. That’s money we actually have to pay back or roll over.
All* government spending is funded by taxes
6eorge Jetson (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 4:34PM EST (link)when you define taxes as fiat-based transfers of wealth (to state Francis’ point another way). It’s just that printing money is not recognized by most folks as an implicit, hidden tax.
A US Dollar is worth a dollar only because the US Govt says it is. How does the govt get away with that? We the citizens accept and take for granted that the dollar can purchase real goods & services and hence serves as a medium of exchange. (E.g. “How much car can I get if I sell my boat.”) Let’s call the dollar the Transitive Property Real Claim (TPRC).
Now the govt has the ability to print money, which in essense is granting itself a larger pro-rata share of the TPRCs on current real assets. The govt also has the ability to tax, which transfers existing TPRCs from the private citizen to the govt.
IFF holders of TRPCs believed that govt issued govt bonds (i.e. IOUs for TPRCs on future labor, goods & services) would actually be honored by the return of those TPRCs via future bond paydowns sourced from future explicit taxes on a fixed TPRC supply, then the dilution effect would only be temporary, and the induced inflation (or lack of deflation) would be.greatly mitigated. However, our government is the quintessential embodiment of Wimpy from Popeye.
To summarize, govt spending has to be funded somewhere. Either the dilution of TPRCs today (printing money) or from our children’s labors (taxed TPRCs) in the future.
The asterisk was to allow for the smidgen of service-fee based spending,
6eorge Jetson (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 4:35PM EST (link)which varies in proportion to consumer-controlled demand.
There's a much more direct reason why a dollar has tangible value
Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 5:46PM EST (link)Because by law, you can’t engage in any kind of economic activity without paying taxes. And also by law, you’re required to pay your taxes to the Federal government in its own money.
That creates an uncollapsible demand for dollars. Even if you conducted private transactions in gold, or euros, or wampum, somewhere along the line you’d still need to obtain dollars in order to pay your taxes. It ends up being a lot easier to just use dollars for everything.
This, in all candor, is the fatal flaw with the idea of a 100% Federal tax holiday. I envision that it’s only possible to get away with the holiday for a year or two, just long enough to prevent a deflationary spiral.
But you’d have to bring back dollar taxation at some level, even if very low, otherwise the whole economy would de-dollarize. And since the whole emerging world depends on dollar-based claims, chaos would ensue.
Ahh, so that's why the Democrats don't pay taxes
6eorge Jetson (Diary) Sunday, February 15th at 3:45PM EST (link)They’re trying to undermine the US dollar in their pursuit of their socialist dream.
But seriously, I wasn’t trying to suggest that a switch to anything else was a viable option. As you state “It ends up being a lot easier to just use dollars for everything.” A million dollars is worth a million dollars because it can buy a home that is perceived by the market to be worth (approximately and time-varying) a million dollars. And the home is worth a million dollars because you can fetch a million dollars for it.
With over 300 million Americans plus the world economy using the dollar as its native and benchmark currency, the dollar is exceedingly entrenched as the medium of exchange. The stability of the dollar relative to less developed countries (not dollars of non-recessionary times) was driven home recently as I read how folks in countries with unstable currencies behave in highly uncertain times. We in the US save (those w/ discipline, that is) in dollars. Folks elsewhere store their value in physical goods. If we had a similar extreme lack of faith in the dollar, we’d be running out to the furniture store, etc. to buy desks, etc. that would have some value.
Thank you for the additional knowledge that the need to pay taxes in dollars provides an additional “guardrail” against de-dollarization. As a former financial engineer turned software engineer, I don’t claim to be an expert, but I do try to derive my conclusions from the frameworks that I understand. It seems to me that a de-dollarization would result more from an unstable dollar, moreso than the need to pay taxes in dollars. Further, there are other external risks (e.g. civil war, the field of unknown risks) that I think are more likely to play a stronger role than the need to pay taxes in dollars.
To extend the examination further, what if you modifed your 100% federal tax holiday to a 80% federal tax holiday? (I picked 80% for no other reason than the 80/20 rule.) That would keep the need to pay some taxes in dollars continuously in place.
And here’s another thought. What if the duration (1 yr vs 2 yr) and the magnitude (80% vs 100%) were tied to some measure of dollar stability? (I don’t have a specific measure in mind.) That way, existing and future holders of dollars would know the rules of the game (and would mitigate the blindsiding surprise to existing holders), and yet the deflationary risks could be addressed.
I'm sure Strauch appreciates this,
johnt Saturday, February 14th at 11:26AM EST (link)almost as much as he appreciates ramrodding a trillion $ bill through virtually unread, a clear sign of the respect Obama and Democrats hold for us.
I wonder who Obama, Reid, and Pelosi have more contempt for, those who oppose them or those who approve. Right now my bet is that the Dem leadership is thankful for the Strauch’s of America, and also having a good laugh at their expense,
“a man’s admiration for absolute government is proportinate to the contempt he feels for those around him”. Tocqueville
Ramrodded? I thought Obama used a scapel? nt
6eorge Jetson (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 4:51PM EST (link)To clarify: Obama ramrodded to get into the operating room
civil truth (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 5:05PM EST (link)Whereupon, Obama whipped out his trusty scalpel and went to work.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
I saw your post and that diary after I posted this
6eorge Jetson (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 5:07PM EST (link)Great minds think alike
Classy
LoneStarLizard (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 12:32PM EST (link)Once again, liberals show us how classy they can be. If only I could dissent with such style and poise!
Something to aspire to, I guess..
http://www.lonestarlizard.com/
If inflation gets out of control, you raise taxes? Likewise, for deflation, you cut taxes?
Cheetah772 (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 1:38PM EST (link)Just trying to get basic economics nailed here. Don’t throw eggs at me, if I got it basically wrong.
Or do you mean that in cases of inflation, high interest rates and cutting down money supply are the best ways of controlling it rather than simply to raise taxes and place price controls like Zimbabwe is doing right now? Did I get that correctly?
Likewise, in cases of deflation, of which you say is ALREADY here, then the best way is to cut interest rates, if that doesn’t work out, cut taxes or reduce spending?
Would it be correct to say that in both inflation and deflation cases, people may want to save their money, but doing it differently? Basically, it’s all about controlling SAVING habits instead of spending habits? That’d be an interesting way of looking at the current economic picture….
Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong on all of this stuff….
Daniel 2:20 And he [God] changeth the times and seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding.
I'm not clear on some of these questions, but I'll take a shot
Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 2:40PM EST (link)Inflation, by definition, is too many dollars chasing too few goods. You can respond to this by increasing the cost of money (raising interest rates), by raising taxes, or by reducing government spending.
Inflation happens a lot. We know a fair amount about how to deal with it.
Deflation is far more evil, and we have relatively less experience with it. In a time of deflation, the value of borrowing is strongly attenuated, because the real cost of money rises. Simultaneously, however, the value of all kinds of debt (except federal government debt) also falls, because the perceived default risk rises. (Federal debt is risk-free.)
We already have zero nominal interest rates, but due to deflation, real interest rates as experienced by the private economy are remarkably high. You’re stuck in a box at this point, with only non-traditional policy tools available. That’s where we are now.
I’m suggesting a 100% tax cut because it’s a radical way of injecting money into the economy.
A 100% tax cut WILL increase the money supply, but it will NOT cause inflation! This is a subtle and critical point.
Remember, inflation is not too much money. It’s too many dollars chasing too few goods. In a time of sharply reduced demand, as now, the dollars are going into savings accounts rather than chasing goods (or investments, which is the same thing).
In a time of deflation, saving money can be highly rational. In a time of inflation, saving money is not rational, and borrowing money for spending or investing is rational. In hyperinflation (Zimbabwe), nothing is rational.
I love you, Blackie, but ...
skorrent1 (Diary) Sunday, February 15th at 1:14AM EST (link)This post is a trifle oversimplified. The actors in the first paragraphs (“you” and “we”) are the government. In the last paragraphs, they are the private economy.
Don’t get me wrong. I understand that in a constantly changing economy it is desirable to have the quantity of money roughly correspond with the value of goods and services produced. It allows long term contracts to be written with reasonable expectation of predictable results. In an economy of increasing productivity, as we have been over the long haul, this means increasing the money supply so that the dollar price of the “breadbasket” of produced goods and services will not vary by much. However, no matter how carefully this is done, it results in a maldistribution of the benefits of increasing productivity. A general increase in the amount of money increases the demand for items that have shown no productivity increase and reduces the reward available to the innovators. Or, to say it another way, it interferes with the economic process of substitution.
In the real world, the amount and rate of the increase of money supply is under the control of the (supposedly objective) Fed banks, and the benefits of this increase accrue first to the banks. This probably explains why, rather than striving to match money supply to productivity, we have had, since 1913, the inflation that we see in every commodity price to the present. If you add to this the fact that the regulator of this process, i.e., the government, is funded by a tax system that benefits from increasing taxes on increasing price levels, we should not be surprised that the benefits of inflation are not shared equally by the populice. Nor by the fact that we have more experience with inflation than with deflation.
That being said, and the terrors of both hyperinflation and rampant deflation to be avoided at all costs, I see no reason why the difficulties of modest deflation could not have been accommodated just as easily as modest inflation had the biases of the financial system been pointed in that direction over the last 95 years. I suggest that the expectations of borrowers, lenders, speculators and consumers would have been up to the challange, with no greater resultant maldistribution.
Gotta admit
mallcopsaysno Saturday, February 14th at 2:34PM EST (link)I hadn’t considered this before.
I refused to apologize for chickenhawking when told to.
Eisenhower was right.Since it is Valentine's Day,
itrytobenice (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 2:49PM EST (link)I think you should reproduce just to spite our good friend, Mr. Straus.
Plus, we would love to have a few more conservative Blackhedds in the world.
And I did not know that the Treasury Dept. kept their money in commercial banks. I work in a bank, but we are obviously not large enough to qualify. But something funny: for public deposits we are required to pledge US securities for all deposits over the $100,000 limit (previous to this most recent free FDIC insurance stuff). I wonder if you have to pledge Treasuries to guarantee Treasury securities.
Things that make me go Hmmmmmm.
Proper grammar saves lives.
Let’s eat Grandma.
Let’s eat, Grandma.
The Fed's money isn't the same as the Treasury's money
Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 3:09PM EST (link)I’m sure that people hear things like “The US government spends $3 trillion a year” and imagine that there is such a thing as $3 trillion somewhere. There isn’t.
The Treasury maintains accounts at commercial banks in which they receive tax revenues, and different accounts through which they pay for what they spend (including transfer payments like Social Security). These accounts have a special name that I forgot long ago.
But the last time I checked, the Treasury only has a total of about $50 billion in all of its accounts at any given moment in time. (For a few weeks every April, that amount balloons up, and then falls again.) Money changes hands as people execute transactions. Add up the value of all those transactions over a year, and you get the $14 trillion GDP figure. But there’s no actual reality to the money itself, it’s just units of account.
For the Fed, it’s all different. To the Fed, money is a liability rather than an asset. They used to keep about $42 billion in reserves in the accounts that every bank is required to keep with them. The Fed can increase or decrease these balances at will (they’re just numbers in computer files), and they can also manipulate the interest rates that banks charge each other to borrow reserves (which is the basic transaction that results in the generation of private credit). Since early November, reserve levels have been sitting at around $600 billion. No, I’m not kidding. It’s shocking.
You missed the key part of itrytobenice's comment, Francis
civil truth (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 5:10PM EST (link)Sounds like she was offering you her honor – which means she’s waiting to hear if you’re going to honor her offer, especially on this day of days.
The greatest evil…is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern. -C.S. Lewis
http://www.gmsplace.com/
Not my honor.
itrytobenice (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 7:21PM EST (link)Francis and I are both happily married. I’d just like for his bride and him to produce more such brilliance so my kids can read RedState and learn someday.
Proper grammar saves lives.
Let’s eat Grandma.
Let’s eat, Grandma.
Well now help me with this...
itrytobenice (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 7:34PM EST (link)I audit ROTA – which is the Report of Transaction Accounts that we are required to fill out to calculate our required reserves. The GL accounts that we are allowed to count toward those reserves are our vault cash, our correspondent accounts (the accounts we keep with other banks) and our balances in our Fed account.
If I’m reading that right, you are saying that the reserve requirements of American banks have increased from $42 billion to $600 billion. Why would banks have increased their reserves by that amount? Is it because they have had significant increases in their transaction accounts, or is there something else about this I don’t understand?
Also, is there actual cash at the Fed in these reserve accounts, or just a book entry?
Proper grammar saves lives.
Let’s eat Grandma.
Let’s eat, Grandma.
To my knowledge, required reserves haven't changed
Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 11:43PM EST (link)The amount of reserves actually maintained by the Fed has changed. They’re trying to ensure that no one gets illiquid or is unable to access overnight funds. It doesn’t mean that there has been any significant increase in the amount of reserves actually demanded by banks, because on the whole they’re not forming new credits.
Manipulating reserve requirements is one of the standard policy tools (the Chinese have been very actively manipulating theirs as they’ve swung from extremely inflationary conditions to a sharp slowdown in domestic investment). But I’m not aware that our Fed has gotten into this yet. (I could be wrong.)
It could be logical for the Fed to relax reserve requirements, but I think they know this won’t be enough to get banks lending again.
Where did they get their money?
itrytobenice (Diary) Sunday, February 15th at 1:23AM EST (link)We have to keep a certain percentage of our demand deposits in reserves, and I know that is at the Fed (or in the vault or correspondent accounts). Ohhhhh. Wait a minute. I just thought of something.
The FDIC just got through running a redlight special on FDIC insurance. All of our deposits in non-interest bearing DDAs just qualified for unlimited FDIC insurance. Those are the accounts that we have to reserve against. If the money is in an MMDA, CD, NOW, Sweep, etc, there is a limited expansion of FDIC insurance but it is not unlimited.
I’ll bet there is a *huge* spike in DDAs which would explain why there is a huge spike in reserves held at the Fed. Because I know they haven’t been monkeying with the percentage of reserves, which is one of the ways they have of tinkering with M1.
I don’t know without more research, but I’ll bet this is it.
The other thing the Fed has been doing, or so I’ve heard, is that they no longer require Treasuries as collateral. That is one of the ways they have been helping with liquidity in banks. CMOs didn’t qualify as collateral for any type of lending, whether Fed Funds, discount, nothing. Now, the Fed is accepting them as collateral, which takes a poor quality asset of the banks and makes it into a Treasury equivalent security.
Proper grammar saves lives.
Let’s eat Grandma.
Let’s eat, Grandma.
My stream of consciousness typing.
itrytobenice (Diary) Sunday, February 15th at 1:28AM EST (link)I apologize for that one. I promise if I had preview it would be better.
The thing is…DDAs (demand deposit accounts) have to be reserved against, but non-DDAs such as CDs, NOW, MMDA, etc don’t have a reserve requirement. As FDIC insurance is unlimited on the DDAs, our biggest depositors have moved their money into those accounts, which is affecting our reserve requirement, even though the method of calculation hasn’t changed, consumer behavior has changed dramatically.
Proper grammar saves lives.
Let’s eat Grandma.
Let’s eat, Grandma.
I think a lot of this comes back to liquidity requirements
Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Sunday, February 15th at 1:00PM EST (link)Demand deposits are the things that cause runs, because time deposits are considerably stickier. In the days before deposit insurance, runs were a regular occurrence because they matched the desire of people for extremely high liquidity.
Demand deposits that are FULLY insured (not so much by an explicit FDIC guarantee but rather by an implicit one, backed up by appropriate reserve levels) are almost as good as money held in mattresses, from the viewpoint of ordinary people who have (rightly or wrongly) become fear-stricken about the solvency of banks. But from the systemic point of view, they’re not nearly as threatening. Yet they do result in the distortions of normal behavior that you’re seeing with reserve levels.
Back in the days of specie money, people would vote on the solvency of the banking system on any given day by the ratio of currency to deposits they chose to hold on any given day. With deposit insurance, they get more liquid by converting time deposits to demand deposits as it becomes possible for them to do so.
It’s funny, though. There’s a very good indication that last autumn was a time of irrational fear as bad as any in history. I had all kinds of people asking me whether they should take their money out of the bank.
And Wachovia actually did fail due to a run. (I have that on exceptionally good authority, although I shouldn’t drop the names here.) This was a few days after WaMu failed fair and square, due to rotten management. But Wachovia was solvent enough and perfectly well-managed.
Itrytobenice, I sent you a couple of private emails with data from the Fed to back up my position. Hoping to see your replies quickly. Thanks.
Francis,
redneck_hippie (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 3:44PM EST (link)have you seen the chart here which states 60% of GDP was the estimate for 2008?
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2186rank.html
I was searching for a worldwide comparison and this is what I found. So, we’re actually going to be more in debt than Great Britain?
Wow, no wonder Geithner fumbled his presser, what with the new protectionism provision and all. The G7 must have been a steambath.
60% of GDP is actually pretty sustainable, all else equal
Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 3:51PM EST (link)You notice who’s near the top of the list? Japan, at 170%+. That’s because they tried to deal with their deflation crisis with fiscal stimulus. That’s where we’re headed.
The Japanese can deal with such a huge debt because they’re a surplus country. Most of the debtholders are Japanese. But we’re a deficit country. The ceiling is probably a lot lower for us.
How does the
redneck_hippie (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 3:54PM EST (link)porkulus affect GDP? In other words do union makework and other gov. stimulous jobs increase GDP at the same rate the debt is increased?
I think no, but I’m not an expert.
Stimulus and GDP
Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 5:59PM EST (link)I don’t think anyone has a really good yardstick for how to measure the effect of stimulus on GDP. The economics-101 answer is you multiply the amount of net spending by 1.5 and add that to GDP.
But there are problems. First, to what extent are you displacing private-sector spending or investment? This is a completely open question, and it will depend on how much of the stimulus borrowing will come from domestic or foreign sources.
For the foreign-sourced component, I think you can make a good case that there is no displacement. The Chinese aren’t doing anything with their reserves anyway.
For the domestic component, it’s a heck of a question. I think the twin facts that we’re in deflation and that we’ve returned to activist government both conspire to reduce domestic investment, a pattern that matches the early Thirties. So here too, there probably is no displacement.
Bottom line, the stimulus probably will increase GDP. But the multiplier will NOT be anything near 1.5. It’ll be much closer to 1.0, because there’s no significant private activity that is waiting for an incentive. People who make money from stimulus programs are NOT likely to spend it on.
And then there’s the fact that so much of the stimulus is programmatic spending rather than broad-based spending. It’s going to direct benefit only a small number of politically-favored people, and it won’t all be spent at once.
If I had to pull a number out of my backside, I’d guess that the net effect of the stimulus in calendar 2009 will be no better than 1 to 2 percent of GDP.
Thanks.
redneck_hippie (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 6:07PM EST (link)That makes complete sense. Questions do remain, and that fact is the reason the country is balking at the swiftness and secretiveness of action.
Yes, noticed Japan at 170%+
redneck_hippie (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 3:58PM EST (link)but what I don’t like is that the 60% is an “estimate”.
Was 170% the estimate for Japan in 1998? Just sayin.
Why do you give a platform to idiots like this?
chemjeff (Diary) Saturday, February 14th at 11:27PM EST (link)Seriously – this guy is just a Democrat tool. If Obama told him to jump he’d say “how high”. His comments aren’t worth the electrons used to transport them.