Financial Tsunami, Updated


Bill Gross whispers some frightening words

I know it’s McCain’s day and I don’t want to step on the parade, but you might have noticed that the US stock market dropped three percent yesterday. Bonds had a fairly significant rally, but not a barn-burner.

A pile of really bad economic data came out yesterday, and this morning everyone is anxiously awaiting the monthly labor data. The consensus estimate going in is that about 75,000 jobs were lost in August. If the number comes in much worse than that estimate, hold on to your hat. (Even though New York isn’t expecting a visit from Hurricane Hannah until Saturday.)

At the beginning of this week, I was beginning to scent some signs of a possible turnaround ahead in the financial markets. For one thing, the US dollar is continuing to strengthen rapidly (or more precisely, the euro is continuing to weaken), and commodity prices (including oil) continue to fall. But even the inward signs have been pointing to a mild return to stability in some sectors of the credit and housing markets. Yesterday may have changed that benign picture.

Update: The BLS August employment report is UGLY. See additional comments below the fold.


Bill Gross appears to have touched off a lot of selling yesterday. He’s the investment chief of Pimco Funds (a unit of Allianz Insurance), and he’s one of the most important bond investors in the world. He wrote in a blog post yesterday that, in his opinion, the Federal Government needs to start using its balance sheet to support the value of debt securities, and specifically prices of mortgage-backed debt. Otherwise, the world might experience what he called a “financial tsunami” of falling asset values.

What on earth is he talking about? In a word, he’s worried about deflation. There is too much risk-bearing debt in the world, issued during the years when global markets were systematically underpricing risk and volatility, and now there isn’t enough equity to support it all.

For a perfect storm of reasons (which I’ve been recounting to you over the thirteen months of this continuing financial crisis), there is very little ability for private markets to generate new credit. There is a tremendous appetite, on the other hand, for risk-free and near-risk-free credit, as the continued success of US Treasury and Fannie/Freddie/Ginnie issuance attests.

Why are we worried about conditions in the credit markets? For the same reason you worry about there being oxygen in the air. Business conditions can’t improve without credit. All the economic news focuses on consumer spending, which it’s possible to stimulate through deficit spending. But things can’t improve systemically and permanently as long as credit formation is so impaired.

That’s why the $150 billion tax rebate program earlier this year was such a monumental waste of money. It was like taking an aspirin to cure cancer. It masks the pain a little, but doesn’t fix the disease.

Should the US taxpayers step in and execute a leveraged buyout of the world financial system? More or less like West Germany bought out East Germany in 1989 (by exchanging deutschemarks one-to-one for the far less-valuable östmarks)?

That would be a great question to ask the two candidates for President. Something tells me I won’t get the chance to ask. Something else tells me that their answers wouldn’t matter anyway, because whoever becomes President next January will have one heck of a mess to deal with, and very few good options.

Update: An hour ago, the Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that 84,000 net jobs were lost in August, and the unemployment rate ticked up from 5.7% to 6.1%. In keeping with the pattern seen almost every month this year, the only sectors that added jobs were healthcare, education, and government. Bond-market reaction so far appears moderate.

-Francis Cianfrocca


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42 Comments Leave a comment

Dems out!

drjecdo Friday, September 5th at 6:24AM EST (link)

The country must wrest control of Congress from the Dems as well. We cannot afford the economic havoc that they have and will continue to inflict upon the economy.

 

Can you explain this further?

bk (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 6:34AM EST (link)

“There is a tremendous appetite, on the other hand, for risk-free and near-risk-free credit….”

It seems like you’d always have people lined up to get risk-free credit.

You asked a question that has the sharpest people in the world confused.

Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 6:55AM EST (link)

In the modern financial system, there’s always a structural demand for risk-free (or “benchmark”) credit of various durations. That’s because it’s one of the terms in the mathematical equations that everyone uses to construct their portfolios. I assume that’s what you’re referring to when you say “It seems like you’d always have people lined up to get risk-free credit.”

There’s also enormous structural demand from so-called “official” entities, like central banks and sovereign-wealth funds.

But ordinary investors have to take risk in order to make a rate of return. (Mathematically, the inflation-adjusted return of a risk-free investment must be zero. Otherwise, there’s an arb that the market will quickly trade away. The real world is actually a bit different, but that’s another subject.)

The problem with yesterday’s world (say from 2004 to 2007) is that everyone decided they could inexpensively construct risk-bearing portfolios by using leverage and asset seucritization. That turned out to be wrong.

And so many people lost so much money doing that, that in today’s world, barely anyone wants to take any risk at all.

It you don’t take any risk, you don’t get any return. And there’s no economic growth. That, in a tiny little nutshell, is why our economy is in trouble.

What’s confusing the best minds in the world, from policymakers to private market participants, is what can be done to change the situation? Without a policy response, we’ll either get a short, sharp, catastrophic deflation, or a multiyear period of slow growth as everyone rebuilds his balance sheet. We might get both.

If we do get a vigorous policy response, the only correct prediction anyone can make is that the results will be something different from the intent.

Well the chances of that

hunter (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 7:22AM EST (link)

are not so great.

hunter

Thanks for the add'l info

bk (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 8:02AM EST (link)

even though much of it was over my head. %-}

The whole risk-reward thing is a matter of common sense, but of course common sense has nothing to do with how governments and bureaucrats make decisions.

The risk-reward idea is why I don’t get at least one element of the mortgage “crisis”. When I bought my first house in 1984, interest rates were still very high and so it made sense to buy down the rate for the first few years and hope after 2-3 years that I could refinance. On the other hand, people buying houses the past few years when rates were low were crazy not to lock in fixed rates. Why risk some “creative” financing scheme when there was no reward over getting a 30-year fixed rate?

 
 
 
 

You make good points,

Jack (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 8:09AM EST (link)

but you also oversimplify the problem. The enormous debt the US presently has is starting to accelerate.
Investors are more wont to take a risk based upon capital availability.
Well the baby boomers have come of retirement age and that multi trillion dollar debt the federal government owes the Social Security System has come due to name one massive strain on the capital markets.
The inaction of the government to get their financial house in order has placed us on a precipice.
It is the central issue I believe in this campaign who will increase the debt and who will not. Eliminating earmarks is definitely a nice start but in the overall scheme of things that is a drop in the bucket.
The Dems idea that you can tax your way out of a financial crises is scary beyond belief. The GOP believing that we can cut taxes with the debt from social security coming due is another looney idea.
It is time for some very hard, difficult, and terrible solutions. Solutions that will hurt. Solutions that will cause pain. If we don’t then everyone in the US will come to realize that there is no such thing as a chicken in every pot. Hell there won’t be any pots they will all have been pawned by that time.

Jack

“If at age 20 you are conservative you have no heart. It at age 30 you are liberal you have no brains.” Sir Winston Churchill

The reward was NINJA loans,

Achance (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 8:22AM EST (link)

loans to people with No Income, No Job or Assets. They were giving loans to people who couldn’t qualify for a payday loan. My wife and I were making really good money at the height of the re-fi or trade up boom, but we were at the very end of overextended with all three kids finishing high school, going to college, etc. We were being offered all sorts of loans that there is no way we could have performed on. I could easily be writing this from a million dollar house right now, though I’d be sweating the payments by now if making them at all. Fortunately, good sense prevailed and we’re still in our ’60s-built three bedroom ranch.

I understand the implications for the whole economy, but I haven’t the slightest sympathy for the banks that were making such loans; the bank and its investors should simply have to eat the losses.

In Vino Veritas

 
 

heh, I'm not the same bill gross :)

bill_gross Friday, September 5th at 8:25AM EST (link)

For the record,

I am NOT that bond investor hack.

Does nothing for me but screw up my vanity searches :(

Bill

 

It helps during times like these

ColbyS Friday, September 5th at 8:31AM EST (link)

I think that this kind of pseudo-recession is one of the FEW acceptable times for the govenment to spend money. Now is the time to undertake building projects such as repairing the nation’s roads, sewers, bridges, etc, in order to give people jobs. Levees in New Orleans anyone? Conveniently, there are a large number of construction personnel sitting on their hands at the moment. Get them up and working and spending money on the market.

Defense spending too, although probably fewer engineers are finding themselves in line for unemployment. But opening up more projects for Lockheed and Boeing will stimulate them to hire more supporting and technical staff as well.

Now, this kind of thing would be possible if the Democrats didn’t spoil the budget continuously. During times of economic boom the government should trim and trim and trim to get as small as possible and pay down the defecit. During recessions I think it’s alright for the federal defecit to grow as the government gives back a stimulus – in the form of checks as our current president has very successfully done, or in the form of civil and defense contracts and projects that can be saved for times like these.

NINJA Loans?

ColbyS Friday, September 5th at 8:37AM EST (link)

Now I can finally afford those nunchuckus I’ve been eyeing.

In all seriousness, the existence of such a thing in real business practice is completely absurd and irresponsible. Like you, I have no sympathy.

That's an interesting statement, what does it mean?

Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 8:45AM EST (link)

“Investors are more wont to take a risk based upon capital availability.”

When you say “capital availability,” do you actually mean liquidity? Are you saying that risk aversion comes from the current liquidity impairment in many markets (like the London money market), rather than the other way around? That’s an interesting point, but I have to think about it before I agree or disagree.

To your points about deficit spending: I think you may be seriously underrating the ability and desire of global markets to fund our government deficits.

As far as the candidates are concerned, either one will sharply extend deficit spending as President, because there are no other options. Don’t believe Obama’s tax-increase promises, because he won’t be able to get them pushed through.

I expect McCain to largely hold the line on Federal spending, with the effect that economic growth will be curtailed.

The first four years of an Obama Presidency, as measured in headline economic statistics, will probably be a lot better-looking than the first four years of a McCain Presidency.

So vote for dems?

enrique Friday, September 5th at 9:04AM EST (link)

ColbyS,
So the prescription for ending the financial credit crisis is for the US Gov’t to acquire even more credit and spend us out of the recession (or whatever we want to call our economic situation right now)?

If we want to massively expand public works programs, defense contracts, and hire more government employees why don’t we all vote for the Democrats and the second New Deal?

“There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one striking at the root.” Henry David Thoreau

Way overboard

ColbyS Friday, September 5th at 9:17AM EST (link)

Come on now, don’t equivocate short-term band-aids with the permanent broken reforms of the New Deal.

A public works or defense contract is a temporary economic stimulus that comes with a built-in expiration date.

And I certaintly don’t advocate the government actually hiring people, more like contracting out to private companies.

I’m just saying that it’s another stimulus button that can be pushed in hard times to keep Americans working and producing value. I believe in low taxes and small government, but a recession I believe is an acceptable time to increase the defecit, and a boom is when the government should cut back on contracts to repair the defecit.

And no, I would never vote for a liberal democrat because they are focused on making permanent changes to healthcare and education that DO NOT come with an expiration date and would necessitate raising taxes.

 
 
 
 
 

Ahhh, so this is what 8 years

utahdem Friday, September 5th at 9:22AM EST (link)

Oh Bush, 6 years of Republican control of congress then 2 years of Republicans being obstructionists gives us.

Of course we are getting a financial upheavel with the debt that has been forced upon us by this administrations mismangement.

Didn't we have a budget surplus...

utahdem Friday, September 5th at 9:26AM EST (link)

once before? Oh, that’s right it was under Clinton. Hmmm, I have to wonder….

We enact trickle down economics and we get a budget defecit.

We enact a fair tax system and we get a budget surplus.

Let me think…which is a better system?

 
 

So what's the problem with deflation?

Raven (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 9:26AM EST (link)

It would seem to me that the opposite of Inflation, which is usually not a good thing, would be a good thing.

This is something that’s never even been attempted to be explained to me.

“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36

No, this is what 16 years

Raven (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 9:30AM EST (link)

of “Me,me,me, Now, now, now, Buy it today, pay for it tomorrow, Nope, we’ve decided not to pay our credit card and mortgage bills” gets us.

“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36

No correlation between policy and economy under Clinton

ColbyS Friday, September 5th at 9:34AM EST (link)

Clinton gets undue credit for the economy during those years. He benefitted from the natural economic cycle of new American technologies getting realized: the PC and the cell phone (along with web business) were at the peak of their growth and no president, however idiotic, could hold the American economy down at that point.

Slug

Bill S (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 9:35AM EST (link)

Please, folks, just let his slime dry up.

“It’s such a fine line between stupid, and clever.” – David St. Hubbins

Oil

jimmuy8 (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 9:39AM EST (link)

As to the thought of building or repairing roads: Here in Texas (where I haven’t seen much indication of a real estate collapse) I know of several highway repair projects prematurely finished or postponed because they can’t get the asphalt–not just because of the price, the supplier can’t get any raw materials. So, infrastructure projects will likely have little effect.

debt being "forced" on us?

randy streu (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 9:40AM EST (link)

not so much.

this is what people being financially irresponsible gets THEM. You must be a liberal.

See the Great Depression

shooflyguy68 Friday, September 5th at 9:42AM EST (link)

Deflation drove down the price of commodities which drove down the income of farmers, etc. Deflation sounds good because we’ve seen the dangers of inflation as recently as the late 80′s but deflation is actually probably worse for the macro economy.

Question

MikeO Friday, September 5th at 9:50AM EST (link)

If you are pretty sure that a dollar you have today is automatically going to be worth more tomorrow if you keep it in your pocket or stash it in a mattress, then what are you likely to do with that dollar?

What would help...

mikefisk (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 9:52AM EST (link)

…is if President Bush didn’t spend money at a faster clip than even Clinton did. If it weren’t for that, we’d still be talking about large surpluses.

Besides, all economics could be called “trickle-down”, whether it’s the private enterprise-fueled strain of Reaganomics or if it’s the Socialist view of the state-managed economy. Ultimately it all comes down to a bigger entity creating opportunities for smaller ones; the difference being that the private enterprise has an interest in making sure its efforts create economic success, while the state has no use for such trivium.

“Once within the maw of Leviathan, degree of digestion is irrelevant.” – Michael Fisk

9.25, -4.77

And the people who took them should lose everything, too

Raven (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 9:56AM EST (link)

No sympathy for anyone involved in that sort of idiocy. None.

“If you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22:36

Maybe Not If It's Short-Term Deflation

IJB Friday, September 5th at 10:01AM EST (link)

I’m increasingly getting the impression is that the only way out of this mess is some kind of short-term “shock therapy”.

If the choices are 3-6 months of deflation and massive business and credit failures, or 10+ years of slow, lingering death (see Japan since the early 1990s), I’m really going to have to choose the former.

The question is:

1) Does anyone have the political will to execute option #1?

2) Does anyone have the financial genius to manage option #1?

I would also appreciate Blackhedd to expand on something he said earlier – he said the top-line economic stats would likely look better under Obama (I understand that many Dems claim this is always the case under Dem administrations) – my question is, why is this the case, and what would be the downside that everyone would be ignoring if this were the case?

Here is what worries me, though.

Paul Seale (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 10:02AM EST (link)

To bail out mom and pop organizations – as Gross puts it – it requires the government to doll out BILLIONS of dollars.

Where does that money come from? You, me and businesses.

What if Obama gets elected and the government exacerbates the problem with cap and trade in addition to other taxes on top of a bail out.

Devaluation hurts, no doubt.

Slow grow isnt great, no doubt.

At the same time, however, what is worse? Supporting prices which the market cant support?

Let me give you and example. The wife and I were looking at homes a few years ago. We found one we liked but couldnt afford it so we saved.

We went back to the neighborhood only to find that prices nearly doubled.

We could have stretched our budget, but decided not to.

Just for kicks we visited the same neighborhood a few months ago and noticed a number of foreclosure signs. Apparently some people fell into the trap that they could afford it.

The same applies to my small business. Its true that things have been slow(er) this year and I need to spend around five to seven thousand dollars to replace software and equipment. I cant afford it though.

I am sure some businesses do not do this and just put it on credit even though they probably have no way to pay for it.

Should I be responsible for that person failing to make good choices?

That is my deal with all of this.

Band-aids tend to stick

enrique Friday, September 5th at 10:37AM EST (link)

I wouldn’t mind band-aids but any time you give the federal government control they tend to nver give it back like mohair subsidies.

And then the understanding that, “Hey, if the goveernment spent it’s way out of a recession, maybe we should spend even more now to avoid another one.”

I feel it would be best to let the market correct itself rather than have bureaucrats or politicians ‘manage’.

“There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one striking at the root.” Henry David Thoreau

It's the Economy...Again

ajdx3 Friday, September 5th at 10:37AM EST (link)

Every other word out of McCain’s mouth better be about the economy and what he is going to do about it. (See Bill Clinton). Rightly or wrongly, the American people blame the incumbent party when the economy goes south. McCain better start addressing this issue head on and with a clear and easy to understand plan that makes sense to working class Americans. Make no mistake, the Dems are going to be making this their battle cry for the next 60 days, and McCain needs to get out in front on this.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

A Simple Prescription for the Economy

Spartan4Life (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 10:39AM EST (link)

All good things come from growth.

The consumer makes up 71% of GDP. We need to help the consumer. The only real thing that government can do to help the consumer is cut taxes. Unfortunately, it is not as popular a political issue as it used to be because we have set up this squirrelly system where well over 50% of the people effectively pay no income taxes. Despite that, the Congress should pass an immediate and long term across the board tax cut.

The second part of the equation is spending. We have governments at every level in this country that are drunk on taxes. We need deep and sustained cuts in government spending. We have had to tighten our belts and they should have to do the same.

Lower taxes. Cut spending. Return to economic prosperity.

Stable currency

enrique Friday, September 5th at 10:42AM EST (link)

Not there is such a thing as stable currency whether you look at gold or central bank issued notes, but wouldn’t it be best to have a generally stable currency? One that sometimes is worth more, sometimes less but always about the same? It seems that would promote sounder economic decisions both at the macro and micro level.

It would be nice knowing the 50,000 I earn this year is worth about the same in 10 years without requiring me to find some investment vehicle to keep up with inflation. I’d love to really just save it and put it in a bank and draw no interest if its value could be maintained.

“There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one striking at the root.” Henry David Thoreau

One of 2 solutions

mike_carton Friday, September 5th at 11:01AM EST (link)

The Dems idea that you can tax your way out of a financial crises is scary beyond belief. The GOP believing that we can cut taxes with the debt from social security coming due is another looney idea.

Say I have $1000 in accumulated debt. I make $100 every month. I’m spending $110 every month and paying $10 in interest on the debt, borrowing the extra $20. My monthly budget deficit is $20 and the debt is rising at the rate of $20/month. ($1020 in month 1, $1030 in month 2…, ignoring the rise in interest payments)

What are my options? Let us ignore extreme options like bankruptcy (available to individuals) and currency manipulation (available to central banks) and focus on fiscal choices:

  1. Keep at it, accumulating debt and ultimately passing huge debt on to my kids after my death.

  2. Increase income to at least $120/month, so I don’t add to the debt. All income above $120/month I can use to pay down the debt; alternately, I can give all money above $120 in allowances to my kids today and stick them with my debt upon my death

  3. Cut spending (incl. allowances to my kids) to $90/month at least, so I don’t add to the debt. This might be difficult if all my spending currently is on essentials like food, clothing and shelter. All income above $90/month I can use to pay down the debt; alternately, I can give all money above $90 in allowances to my kids today and stick them with my debt upon my death.

In real life, I’d shoot at a mix of (2) and (3), if I were responsible. Realistically speaking, the same options exist for the government. Cutting expenses is difficult if the largest expense item is the military.

 
 
 

Please folks, don't wish for deflation, or for budget surpluses

Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 11:10AM EST (link)

Blanket response to several comments upthread: deflation by definition is the destruction of asset values. Debt (or credit, its balance-sheet mirror image) is an asset. It’s what drives increases in economic activity, which is what drives job growth, which is makes people feel like the country is moving in the right direction.

Even a mild deflation has the same effect as an interest-rate increase, because in real terms, that’s precisely what it is. The private sector undertakes fewer business projects because the real rate of return doesn’t compensate you for the risk. That tends to throw people out of work.

The danger of a systemic deflation arises from the plain, irrefutable fact that assets backed by mortgages have become overvalued. This is as real and as inescapable as the air in an overinflated balloon. There are only three ways to deal with it, all of them painful:

Either the balloon pops. Or you let the air out slooooowly. Or you contrive to keep the air in the balloon permanently (and do nothing else with the resources it takes to do that).

The reason that this (Republican-controlled) government is madly trying to find a way to keep the air in the balloon, is because the last time we had a serious deflation, the unemployment rate went to 25%.

Regarding fiscal surpluses: these are deflationary in effect. You don’t want to see that happen either.

 

Some personal wisdom bh

Marcus_Traianus (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 11:13AM EST (link)

You have been around long enough to temper anything Bill Gross says. I would opine that since he has been accumulating large positions, especially in MBS, his initial bet was he will eventually profit from others misfortune on the rebound. Problem is, it’s now gut check time and I suspect Gross is a bit nervous there might be a downside not anticipated.

Therefore, Bill’s opine about our government propping up his downside mark-to-market has some parochial motivation. I suspect he is worried about a tsunami on his own portfolio; granted, given his large position it has to be considered. But rhetorically, what will he do; dump it back on the market at a loss? Doubt it and I’ll take the game of chicken for $500, Monty. Too bad some in the market think he’s a sage and will follow him over the cliff.

Nonetheless, this is how the free market works when you take a risk. I have been in this business a long time and frankly have grown tired of all the whiners looking for us to bail out their ridiculous bets. Do you truly believe the answer to finding bottom is more FRB bailouts? I certainly don’t, but realize some of our colleagues in the market think taxpayers can be played the fool.

Let’s find stable valuation vis-à-vis better methodologies and actual events occurring in the underlying assets. Not some daily opine, traders whim and self-absorbed, over leveraged clowns like Gross.

“Both of our political parties, at least the honest portion of them, agree conscientiously in the same object—the public good; but they differ essentially in what they deem the means of promoting that good. One side believes it best done by one composition of the governing powers; the other, by a different one. One fears most the ignorance of the people; the other, the selfishness of rulers independent of them. Which is right, time and experience will prove.”.Thomas Jefferson

Yes!

Robert A. Hahn (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 11:17AM EST (link)

    wouldn’t it be best to have a generally stable currency?

Sure. The problem is, no one knows how to do that. The trick is to keep the ratio of the money supply to the total quantity of goods and services approximately equal over time.

Let’s start with the money supply. No one knows what it is. Oh, we know plus or minus a percentage point or two, but a percentage point represents billions of dollars. If you had your hand on the money spigot, you could never be certain exactly how much was out there. So in opening or closing the valve, you’d always be wrong by some amount, and that amount would be a very large number of dollars.

Next comes the total quantity of goods and services that are out there to buy. We don’t know that either, at least not with any precision, and not without significant delay.

If your job is to maintain the same ratio of the quantity of money to the quantity of goods and services, you are essentially driving a car whose steering wheel is attached to the wheels with rubber bands. You turn the steering wheel, and the front wheels will turn by some amount, after some delay. But if they hit a rock, they might swing back without you doing anything or having any ability to stop them.

If experience tells you that too little money is far worse than a little too much money, then your best strategy is to guess at the right ratio, and then add a fudge factor in favor of too much money.

Which is pretty much what the Fed does, and why over long periods of time we see creeping inflation. This is, like it or not, the best possible solution for creatures confronted by a huge, chaotic (in the mathematical sense) system when the creatures are incapable of knowing the future in advance.

Drink Good Coffee. You can sleep when you’re dead.

There's no doubt whatsoever that Gross's comments are self-serving

Francis Cianfrocca (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 12:13PM EST (link)

That’s why I was careful to say only that they sparked selling yesterday. I actually believe that there is an upside risk in financial markets which is being broadly overlooked.

Gross has been bottom-feeding in the MBS market for nearly a year. Warren Buffett has been for somewhat less time than that.

Another very important person whose words must be considered a proxy for the self-interest of Pimco Funds, is Alan Greenspan, who is now a consultant to Gross.

But put all those disclaimers to the side. If it indeed is true (a big if) that Pimco has stopped aggressively looking for opportunities to buy cheap MBS paper, at a time when the world is awash in the stuff, then that’s an important market signal.

Yes, Deflation Is Bad, But...

IJB Friday, September 5th at 12:43PM EST (link)

Which is worse:

1) A sharp, temporary bout of deflation? Or,

2) A milder, but much longer-term deflationary cycle? (which is pretty much what happened in Japan)

Yeah, they’re both “evil”. But, if you had to choose, which is the “lesser evil”?

Because I’m not convinced that we can avoid one or the other right now.

IIRC, variables are always a bit below fixed

The_Gadfly (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 12:55PM EST (link)

Usually only a quarter point or so, but for the kind of money a house costs, it can add a bunch to what you want to buy. So, if you are comfortable that your job is secure and the economy is good and you think you might be able to refinance later at an even better rate, you might elect to take the variable to buy the bigger house.

For myself, I would have to take something creative. I know I can make a rent payment, but I haven’t saved anything that could be considered a down payment. Theoretically, I might purchase something if someone were willing to give me a zero down option. The reality is, I know I am a bad credit risk on that count, and anybody fool enough to make that kind of a loan who ain’t family isn’t somebody who isn’t going to yank me around downstream, so I wouldn’t take it even if it were offered.

But AChance really hit it on the head in his post, even if he danced around it a bit – Greed. Greed from the buyers looking for the bigger house or the smaller house payment. Greed from the bankers making loans that any realistic gut check would tell them they shouldn’t have been making. Greed from real estate agents who were making bigger commissions selling houses their clients couldn’t afford. Maybe even greed from the estimators setting the prices on the properties. Now the greed bill has come due, and we don’t know how to deal with it.

And what has exacerbated the greed bill is that we have decided that all economic activity can be accurately modeled mathematically, so people who have money to lend can be guaranteed a return on their investment at low or no risk. And everybody is using essentially the same mathematical model, so when it turns out the model is broken, instead of some portion of the system being broken, the whole system is broken. One of the points of the free market capitalistic system is to have multiple independent mechanisms for supporting activity to prevent precisely that problem.

I am sure you saw Greenspan's quote

Marcus_Traianus (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 1:20PM EST (link)

trying to will the market into a 2009 housing bottom; that wasn’t too self serving given his current role.

Here is my take which somewhat agrees with your predilections. Growth will continue to slowly pick up vis a vis exports (which will be relatively impacted by dollar rise) and the technology sector. Liquidity will slowly come back into the market and allow FI’s to ease up on covering their reserves with excess capital. The Spring will be a big test to see where the housing market heads over the following 12 months, so I would wait until at least then to start divining a recovery.

However, that said if we see the right rates, decent new tax cuts/incentives and fiscal discipline at the federal level (can you say Vote McCain?) with this level of housing inventory it may spark the road back to a slow recovery and perdurable growth before or at the beginning of 2009.

I need a disclaimer here – something about this is not investment advice, etc., etc.

“Both of our political parties, at least the honest portion of them, agree conscientiously in the same object—the public good; but they differ essentially in what they deem the means of promoting that good. One side believes it best done by one composition of the governing powers; the other, by a different one. One fears most the ignorance of the people; the other, the selfishness of rulers independent of them. Which is right, time and experience will prove.”.Thomas Jefferson

Yes the liquidity impairment...

Jack (Diary) Friday, September 5th at 1:54PM EST (link)

The lack of capital liquidity will freeze more and more investors.
I could not disagree with you more in regards to yous statements concerning the differential between the two candidates.
Also the first four years of an Obama administration would be a disaster.
A Democrat in the White House and a filibuster proof congress they would spend and spend on a level that this country has never seen before. Plus these Democrats have more in common with Karl Marx then John Kennedy. They have stated it not just Obama but also the leadership of the congress they want a fundamental change in the American market system. They seek and desire a redistribution of wealth. They do not believe that the capitalist system is a good system.
Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Barack Obama are all on record saying this. That my friend scares me to no end. Between November 4th and inauguration day for Obama you will see money pulled out of the market to the tune of trillions.

Jack

“If at age 20 you are conservative you have no heart. It at age 30 you are liberal you have no brains.” Sir Winston Churchill

A whiner who knew he'd be bailed out

contango Friday, September 5th at 2:04PM EST (link)

He wrote in a blog post yesterday that, in his opinion, the Federal Government needs to start using its balance sheet to support the value of debt securities, and specifically prices of mortgage-backed debt.

Let’s call a spade a spade. Gross wants a massive bailout by the Federal Government of bad investments by the private sector – in particular, his bad investments. Instead of taking his lumps – as would happen in a free market.

Here’s the Bloomberg story -

If you buy the “too big to fail” argument, ask yourself why certain free marketeers only yell about interference by government when it prevents them from making bad bets – not when the government (i.e. us – the taxpayers) has to bail them out. It’s like a spoiled teenager who does whatever damn fool thing he wants, knowing Daddy will bail him out no matter what.

People who act as Bill Gross did hurt ALL of us, and should not be in a position to move markets.

Deflation

olderthangandalf Friday, September 5th at 2:16PM EST (link)

There are two types of inflation/deflation – asset (as in the price of your house) and price (as in the price of the things you buy in a shopping basket).

For a long time, we had significant asset inflation and very controllable price inflation. Your house, the value of your commercial real estate portfolio, your holdings in gold or lead, all got a lot more valuabe. Meanwhile, the consumer inflation index moved very little.

Right now, we have asset deflation, big time in localized or niche markets, and much greater price inflation – not terrible, not Germany 1920s, not even USA 1970s, but enough to be a concern.

The problem with asset deflation is that it creates a lot of follow on problems. People that own homes but hold mortgages find out that they have no equity. Commercial investments don’t happen because the project may be worth less than the money put in. Banks don’t want to lend, because the collateral may be a shrinking asset. The problem is greatest with those who have taken on leverage to acquire assets and get outsized returns, because a comparatively small drop in value can reduce their net equity to zero.

The problem with price inflation is that it is a tax on people holding currency or currency denominated income streams (as in, retirement pensions). It victimizes those who cannot get out of currency, and creates artificial incentives for others to look for non currency investments.

To the extent they can control it, the folks running the central banks will do whatever they can to avoid asset deflation so long is they don’t trigger catastrophic Germany 1920s type hyperinflation. The economic and, more importantly, political consequences of having homeowners underwater on their mortgages and zillions of dollar of commercial debt below the value of the equity is just to horrible to contemplate/ That’s why Bernanke keeps pumping liquidity into the system. It’s not clear that it’s working, as banks are reducing liquidity by not lending, but his goal is to put enough money out there to avoid deflation.

Expect inflation. Plan for it by moving your assets out of currency and into asset classes that will do ok in an inflationary environment.