Normally, Nancy Pelosi wages war ON religious doctrine. It seems that last week, though, Pelosi was on the right side of an issue dear to Christians and non-Christians alike: Christmas.
According to an interview I conducted with Reverend Robert Schenck of the group Faith and Action, Speaker Pelosi got a taste of the so-called War on Christmas last week over her decision to keep the Capitol Christmas Tree Ceremony a Christmas ceremony, as opposed to, say, a Holiday Tree ceremony. She was, in her words, “mugged” over the issue. In political terms, this probably means she was ambushed with some kind of unexpected and heavy pressure. Pressure which she apparently resisted.
Pelosi’s alleged comments, which I cannot get her press office to confirm or deny, are all but definitive in their support of the notion that forces with power to exert are using that power to try to abolish Christmas as we know it. A confirmation of the war on Christmas. Because she is an icon on the left, such an admission is striking and extremely important. The chief weapon of the war on Christmas is the cover they get from the media and the left, which is to say a general practice of mocking the very notion. The phrase “War on Christmas” does evoke a Bill O’Reilly temper tantrum, but the assaults on religion are very real.
The most egregious example is the atheist sign in Washington State. The sign is no mere exercise of speech, nor is it simply equal time to a different view of the season. It is, and this is blatantly obvious, an overt and pointed attack on Christianity and religion in general. The group “Freedom From Religion Foundation” are not subtle. They don’t have to be, of course, because Democrats and the media (but I repeat myself) are more than happy to carry water for such groups. In fact, cofounder of the group Dan Barker said of the sign “it’s not that we are trying to coerce anyone; in a way our sign is a signal of protest.” How is that appropriate as an alternative holiday expression?
These groups and their annual assaults eventually start working on every day people, who come to believe the absurd idea that referring to the holiday of Christmas in any government edifice, even an elementary school building, constitutes an endorsement of Christianity by the federal government. It’s absolutely preposterous, but the left makes preposterous into policy and rewrites history through repitition. Lies become “truth” in this way. So their assaults trickle down to average citizens who become so warped they think Rudolph is child endangerment. What kind of reasoning is rattling around in the mind of a parent who thinks singing Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer is coercive or harmful? It is a reasoning absent rationality, absent context and the texture of life, it is absent reality!
There are dozens of other examples, from banning outdoor crosses to red inking Silent Night, but the writing has been on the wall for some time. There is a concerted effort by organized groups, no doubt emboldened by the election, to rid Christianity from their sight and scrub it from our history. The “War on Christmas” is a convenient term, but Christmas is actually just a high profile battlefield. The war is on Christians, and it is waged year round by secular forces and the media.
Usually, in fact, with the help of Democrats like Nancy Pelosi as well. But not this time. So Merry Christmas Madame Speaker. Think of this as our Christmas truce.
Steve Maley
Neil Stevens
Daniel Horowitz
Well if the Democrats had any core values they would not...
JadedByPolitics (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 11:39AM EST (link)have to worry about being “mugged” because they would feel comfortable in their beliefs and state them and take their chances of being thrown out of office BUT they love the POWER more than they love themselves…..perfect example of a egotist and her inability to be true to herself. Power does indeed corrupt absolutely!
Unified Patriots – How-To:
Activists Taking Action
Democrats do so have core values...
Diogenes314 (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 1:13PM EST (link)Love of power, belief in the supremacy of government and hatred of traditional American values to be precise.
5
tcgeol (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 2:35PM EST (link)nt
Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger
Even the Left admits we’re Right
Pelosi not liberal enough to suit the nutroots
E Pluribus Unum (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 12:08PM EST (link)Wow! What kind of world do we live in now?
Kill the Terrorists
Protect the Borders
Punch the Hippies h/t IMAO
Treat Atheism as a religion
Next93 (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 1:14PM EST (link)I’ve always been fascinated by the faith that atheists invest in thier rigid beleif that there is no God, even though thier “proof” is no more verifiable than that of the theists they depricate. Atheism is therefore, a religion in it’s own right.
This brings up an interesting point. As with most religious movements, aheism is theologically incompatible with other religions. This is nothing new; Christianity is incompatible with Hinduism and Islam is incompatible with Christianity. This incompatibility is one of the reasons why American religious tolerance was, at it’s inception, a truly radical idea. In America, you are allowed to disagree with your neighor’s religion, but at the same time, you’re expected to respect his choice, and stand up for his right to that choice. In other words, inter-religious attacks are, at thier core, “unAmerican” (that might be one of the few decent definitions of that term I’ve ever seen, if I do say so myself (and I do)).
Could any other religious group get away with open attacks on other religions? If our Jewish friends had chosen, instead of placing a menorah, to put up a sign explaining how Jesus couldn’t possibly be the Messiah, or if the Christians had put up a sign declaring Muhammed to be a fraud, would that be allowed to remain in the state capitol building in Olympia? Probably not.
For all of the athiests rambling about how theists revel in killing each other, they blithely ignore the fact that nearly all religious warfare has come about not because people were allowed to worship as they chose, but because one group wanted to impose it’s own religion on others. In terms of religious groups in Ameica fighting to impose thier religious belefs on others, I’d say that the athiests are way WAAAY out ahead of any other.
Maybe we need to start an organization called “Freedom From Freedom From Religion”?
Obama was The One in 2008.
He’ll be a BIGGER one in 2012.
Atheism-the religion of murder.
Diogenes314 (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 1:38PM EST (link)For all of the athiests rambling about how theists revel in killing each other, they blithely ignore the fact that nearly all religious warfare has come about not because people were allowed to worship as they chose, but because one group wanted to impose it’s own religion on others.
Not even counting Stalin and Pol Pot, nobody’s even close. More people died in the French Revolution, the Terror and the subsequent revolutionary and Napoleonic wars than in all of the ‘religious wars’, inquisitions and crusades that preceded them combined. The guiding principle behind atheism is Crowley’s ‘Do what thou will shall be the whole of the law’. And socialism, it’s political offspring, is man saying ‘I will be as the most high’.
"Atheism" doesn't have a guiding principle
Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 1:43PM EST (link)One can’t say that ‘atheism’ has a guiding principle any more than one can say that ‘theism’ does, you know.
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Survival of the fittest
Beaglescout (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 3:12PM EST (link)The guiding principle of “atheism” as a religion is the Darwinian imperative: Survival of the fittest.
The atheist creation myth is the Big Bang, where an infinitely small infinitely massive concentration of matter/energy exploded with infinite force, in an infinitely short period of time, instantly filling up an infinite amount of space, that expands infinitely in time, to fill transcendent infinities of 3d/4d space. In other words, a miracle happened! Ignore what happened before the miracle and who or what created the conditions necessary for the miracle to happen.
There are many parallels, too numerous to cover in a brief comment.
“A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one.”
Clearly you have a very narrow definition of 'atheism' (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 3:32PM EST (link)…
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Also a bit of a generalization
IL_Glock21 (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 3:34PM EST (link)Atheists, more often than not, buy into evolutionary theory, but they also, more often than not, do not ascribe to social darwnist perversions/oversimplifications of a theory that they’d consider applicable only/mainly to the development of complex organisms, shared traits, etc in biological studies.
Nothing about atheism, in and of itself demands that they believe evolutionary theory is accurate, nor does it demand a religious adherence to it. Dawkins, as a fairly well known figurehead of atheism, notes in his own writings that not all atheists buy into his views on darwinism, though he criticizes them for various assumptions on why they doubt or disregard it.
Similarly the big bang is typically seen as one scientific explanation, and many atheists may feel it is the best theory available so far, but not believe it as indisputable fact, or may feel that string theory or other theories are more likely to provide a better model to verify. Others simply are agnostic about how everything began, but strongly disbelieve in any god(s) being responsible for it.
You can find some atheists who take scientific theories and twist it into a religion, or at least a replacement for religious explanations with remaining question viewed as inevitably solvable through the scientific method. Atheist scientists are often strongly in this category and also tend to get more interviews and be more outspoken, like Dawkins. But there are also atheist scientists who fall more in the category of eternal skeptics, who don’t expect or contend that science can or will solve all mysteries and are quite content with admitting that they can’t explain everything, at least not yet.
Non-scientist atheists generally fall more into the skeptic category than the science-as-religion group. Big bang to them is just a theory that could be proven wrong… just as evolution is. They generally consider them better or more valid working theories due to their adherence to the scientific method and scientific principles over theories like ID or pure creationism which they disregard due to what the believe is a reliance on the supernatural, something they don’t believe in.
We’re a fairly diverse group that doesn’t always fall into the stereotypes of the Dawkins types out there, or the stereotypes of the stereotypes of the Dawkins types out there.
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- “Make love not war? Real men can do both!”
A reply, IL_Glock21, on the atheists
Matthew Morris (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 3:59PM EST (link)“They generally consider them better or more valid working theories due to their adherence to the scientific method and scientific principles over theories like ID or pure creationism which they disregard due to what the believe is a reliance on the supernatural, something they don’t believe in.”
I would like to adjust the last part of your sentence quoted above:
“something they believe in not believing in”
or
“something they believe to be without merit, value, relevance or insight”
Because it is not they they do not believe. They just replace belief in those supernatural elements with beliefs in other things, like belief in the absence of the supernatural (which I maintain that they should remain agnostic about) or belief in the supremacy of adhering strictly to matters of the natural / physical world. This are beliefs. But a good question would be: beliefs oriented towards what ends?
Further, in the beginning of the sentence, you refer to their adherence to the scientific methods and principles. I think that pretty much everyone adheres to these things… in matters of science. It is the underpinnings of this adherence to science in all matters that is being called into question. It is this commitment to and belief in a philosophy of naturalism.
“I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Ipsum esse subsistens
Atheism and Belief
IL_Glock21 (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 4:38PM EST (link)Your adjustments seem to be geared towards some sort of ‘gotcha’ on belief as opposed to disbelief, but without actually changing the gist of the statement overall. If it helps I can skip ahead to the end of that gotcha game to the point that when I use the term belief the context guides what exactly I mean by it, whether it be a belief in a greater truth or merely having confidence in an idea (ie defs 1 and 3 from Merriam-Webster). I apologize if my usage of the term was careless or confusing in this regard, but I differentiate between the meanings when I say something like “believe scientific explanations are more fulfilling” vs “believe in god(s).”
As far as to what ends their decision to rely more or entirely on natural explanations as opposed to what they’d consider supernatural is hoped to lead, it varies considerably. Some feel that it is a more logical path towards understanding the world around them and a more satisfying method of satisfying their curiosity. Anti-theist types generally seem to cling to a belief that with natural explanations being verified that their anti-religious views will become more accepted and will lead to what they’d consider a more ‘enlightened’ society, as absurd as that may sound. Still others may not really feel science is a perfect way to explain everything, but view it as the best way to inform their other philosophical/ideological perspectives, even though those perspectives may generally disregard god(s) or the supernatural for whatever reason.
Atheists are notoriously difficult to group together so cleanly. As atheists themselves admit when trying to organize for a common cause, it’s like herding cats.
As far as adherence to the scientific method… for science: this can and often is generally true regardless of other philosophical considerations, religious and otherwise. Still others, both religious and non-religious feel that philosophy also informs science to varying degrees. A non-religious view of philosophy informing science would be ethical constraints on testing human subjects, the development of the scientific method as the appropriate way to study the natural/observable/testable world. There will always be some philosophical debates, religious and otherwise, that involves the value or methods of scientific study and how its findings should affect our perspective.
Those who advocate separation in this regard generally admit that these areas of study can certainly inform each other, and the neither can be entirely isolated when it comes to human experience and understanding, even if the work is done separately to ensure objectivity and/or more usable results.
As far as naturalism, even that can vary greatly. From those who embrace the brutality of nature and do evil, to those that make a distinction to the human condition, regardless of any religious views, that our consciousness necessitates ideas like natural rights/law or a social application towards liberty or a pragmatic application of ensuring as much freedom as possible. Not to mention all the gray areas in between or those who honestly don’t ponder too deeply on the subject.
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- “Make love not war? Real men can do both!”
Militant atheists really aren't
Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 1:41PM EST (link)Those ‘atheists’ who make it their life’s mission to attack Christianity aren’t really atheists. They’re anti-theists. If they didn’t believe, why would they be so offended at the believers? And the believers of *one specific religion* at that?
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I would say the indifferent are agnostic and the agnostic indifferent
Matthew Morris (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 1:57PM EST (link)If one is an atheist, one believes.
“I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Ipsum esse subsistens
One can really start to split hairs there (nt)
Neil Stevens (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 2:01PM EST (link).
RS contributing editor, technical administrator, and “a hardy variety of crabgrass.”
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“I rejoice that America has resisted.” – William Pitt, the Elder
An agnostic is an atheist
Diogenes314 (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 2:23PM EST (link)…without the courage of his convictions. The term was created by Thomas Huxley explicitly to dissuade others from calling him an atheist.
Matthew Morris (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 2:32PM EST (link)from m-w.com:
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable ; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something
I suppose your quibble is with the first half of definition 1. My use was of the more practical or broader meaning, rather than a meaning with theological / soteriological implications.
In this sense (the broader sense) both my dog and my two year old are equally agnostic about a number of things, including the existence of God.
“I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Ipsum esse subsistens
oops, No Subject Required!
Matthew Morris (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 2:34PM EST (link)now I know where those funny entries in the recent comments came from. I remembered I still needed a subject AFTER I had clicked the post button.
“I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Ipsum esse subsistens
Atheist -vs- Agnostic
exitsfunnel Wednesday, December 10th at 6:11PM EST (link)Though I’m well aware of how Websters defines the two words, I think that in practice it is a distinction without a difference. I describe myself as an atheist because I think that doing so most accurately describes my world view, but I don’t absolutely assert the non-existence of god. I view the possibility that there is a god as similar to the possibility that there is a species of talking dog somewhere. Everything I know about dogs and their interaction to the world suggests to me that no such species exists but how can I assert absolutely that it doesn’t? Maybe it is hiding out someone in the Peruvian jungle still waiting to be discovered. You can’t prove a negative.
So technically I’m agnostic with respect to both talking dogs and god and I’d be willing to bet that the vast, vast majority of self identified atheists are as well.
-exits
Because they are essentially irrational?
Diogenes314 (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 2:19PM EST (link)Beats me. That would be a question for a clinical psychologist. Individual atheists might be capable of believing in nothingness and allowing others to believe as they will, but as a group they tend to be the least tollerant ideology of all. Some might be mere non-theists, but by and large they are opposed to the concept of God and tend to be offended by and dismissive of those who don’t buy their dogma. And (possibly due to their revolutionary Jacobin roots) they are by far the most bloodthirsty. “Convert or die” is a principle atheist regimes have raised to an art form, the Wahabbis have nothing on them. As far as not having a guiding principle, the belief that there are no transcendent truths is a principle that comes naturally to the atheist mind, as well as utopianism and moral relativism.
The generalization doesn't hold
IL_Glock21 (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 2:33PM EST (link)Communist states were oppressive along all sorts of ideological lines, including atheism, but also in other economic, social, intellectual, etc ways.
Atheism, in and of itself, doesn’t encourage or discourage oppression and there are plenty of liberty supporting atheists out there, especially in modern western society. Many atheist organizations are specifically dedicated to liberty even if through government with limits forcing it to be secular, though allowing citizens to believe/disbelieve freely. They’d argue that this is a classical liberal notion.
“Some might be mere non-theists, but by and large they are opposed to the concept of God…”
That’s what an atheist is.
…and tend to be offended by and dismissive of those who don’t buy their dogma.”
You might be calling the kettle black a bit here. It’s not necessarily a bad thing to be offended and dismissive of an ideology you strongly disagree with though. I’m personally offended and dismissive of authoritarian ideologies, regardless of whether or not they intend to force some views I agree with, the methods are too repugnant to allow.
As an atheist I’d obviously take issue with being put in league with communists and other authoritarian regimes. I didn’t join the Federalist Society for their support of oppression.
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- “Make love not war? Real men can do both!”
Agreed on imposing views
IL_Glock21 (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 1:42PM EST (link)“For all of the athiests rambling about how theists revel in killing each other, they blithely ignore the fact that nearly all religious warfare has come about not because people were allowed to worship as they chose, but because one group wanted to impose it’s own religion on others.”
Forcing ideology, whether it be a religion, a philosophy, etc on people instead of allowing a free exchange of ideas is the root cause of many conflicts since at its core, forcing ideology is anti-liberty and it is human nature to rebel against subjugation.
Some atheists fall into similar traps as others ideologues who start assuming that their point of view is superior and others are a threat to the greater good. Such notions have justified endless horrors and bloodshed. The communists who embraced atheism made similar mistakes along the lines of both their political ideology and anti-religious theories. Other authoritarian regimes did so along racial, ethnic, monarchist, etc grounds. Religion is often too quickly blamed by the anti-theists to justify their opinion instead of appreciating the underlying repression of liberty that is far more often the common denominator.
On a side note… atheists, like theists, come in many stripes. Not all fit into the description that claims proof of no god with near-religious zeal. They do tend to be the loudest of the bunch though. Like many extremists they tend to harm the overall image of the whole though. The more sophisticated atheists rest on other arguments for their disbelief in deities, which consider ‘proving the negative’ a pointless enterprise. Their disbelief rests on what they consider a total lack of evidence (by their standards) for the positive claim. A lot of self-described agnostics fall into a similar view, but refuse to assume that lack of evidence justifies confidence in disbelief.
But just like there are some loony theists out there protesting military funerals, there are loud and obnoxious atheists with equally repugnant views. It’s not fair to the sane folks, even if we strongly disagree, to paint with the broad brush.
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- “Make love not war? Real men can do both!”
Next93: Must Read!
Matthew Morris (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 2:00PM EST (link)That was one of the most superb comments in RS history. Most do not ever hear from this perspective, as it is entirely lacking in all popular media and culture.
“I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Ipsum esse subsistens
Wow, thank you. I'm honored.
Next93 (Diary) Friday, December 19th at 6:22PM EST (link)N/T
Obama was The One in 2008.
He’ll be a BIGGER one in 2012.
5+ nt
Caleb Howe (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 2:18PM EST (link)nt
Caleb Howe (formerly known as absentee)
Another form of Bailout
IL_Glock21 (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 1:19PM EST (link)The Washington State Capitol mess has careened even further down the slippery slope that was opened by the law suit to include the nativity scene. Now there’s a push to include a “Festivus” pole… a faux holiday popularized on Seinfeld.
The atheist sign may very well be counter productive in that it isn’t going to convince anybody to abandon their faith… but the people behind it see it as a resounding success as the outcry has afforded them national attention to their views on secularism and how they’re mainly protesting the use of government property for religious displays that opened the door to their action. Doubters, agnostics, and other atheists are the primary audience. The anti-religious statement was just bait to get a War on Christmas media blitz. This one probably went way beyond their expectations of a simple local controversy though.
The nativity case that opened the floodgates for religious statements at the Captol has made such controversy inevitable, if not by atheists, then by other competing religious views. The government is bound by court precedent that says if you allow one, you have to allow others, as giving exclusive access to one religious view is hard to dismiss as not respecting an establishment of religion.
But if all these religious displays are banned on government property, is Christmas really banned? None of this involves private displays (no kooks allowed to put up alternative statements along with your lawn decorations), nor does it affect nativity scenes or other religious statements on church property (no atheists allowed to put alternative views up next to the manger).
If anything, the desire for government respect of a religious viewpoint is a psychological bailout of sorts. It’s almost an admission that a tradition, religious or otherwise, cannot stand on its own without government support. If a tradition cannot stand on its own merit among the people, it should be allowed to fail.
I don’t believe Christmas is in any danger of going away. Our nation is overwhelmingly Christian and Christmas tradition is strongly supported by both believers, non-believers, secularists, etc alike.
Christmas doesn’t need a government bailout.
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- “Make love not war? Real men can do both!”
Can't quite agree
tcgeol (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 2:53PM EST (link)Throughout the history of our country, the government has acknowledged God. Not necessarily as Christian always, but that He exists and rules over the affairs of men. There is nothing at all different about this than has always been done, except for the reasonably new restrictions on it. The First Amendment has always allowed this.
If this were a new concept – if towns had never before allowed religous symbols like a nativity scene and all of a sudden they start doing so, then your point would be stronger. However, there is a difference between acknowledging God and propping Him up. God doesn’t need our help in propping Him up, but He wants the acknowledgement of those who trust in Him. If you don’t believe in God, then obviously you are under no obligation to acknowledge Him now.
Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger
Even the Left admits we’re Right
Understandable but...
IL_Glock21 (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 3:06PM EST (link)…this is essentially an appeal to tradition. The courts have been trending towards limitations on what the government can appear to endorse or respect. Quite a bit of this in our modern history with the boost in American culture to differentiate ourselves from the ‘godless commies’ and those who wished to constrain that gaining headway with 14th Amendment incorporation on local/state activities getting tested more and more on activities that generally would have gone unquestioned before.
In this particular case it was a situation where the government was generally avoiding it and Christians pushed the issue in the courts to reverse the modern trend. Now the secularists are pushing back.
If it had been the opposite way, however, that atheists or other religious groups pushed to have a long standing tradition quashed under the same arguments, the appeal to tradition doesn’t make them wrong to do so, even if it is obnoxious to those that enjoyed the government activities supporting their traditions.
In situations where a town gives a religion a spot on government property to make a statement already, even if a longstanding tradition in doing so, it has already opened the door for other groups to demand their views get equal deference. If the government refuses they open themselves up to 1st amendment suits to allow everything again… or they can leave it to private citizens and/or their churches to make such statements without exclusive government support.
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- “Make love not war? Real men can do both!”
I'm not really arguing this case in particular
tcgeol (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 4:32PM EST (link)Frankly, I think the atheists sign is in poor taste. As a Christian, I wouldn’t put up a sign in the courthouse saying that all non-Christians are morons. However, that is beside the point.
My argument was limited to your statement that this is, in effect, a government bailout of religion, and I can’t see it that way. I’m tracing this back to Plymouth Colony, not just back to the 30s-60s, when the anti-communist backlash was in vogue.
Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger
Even the Left admits we’re Right
Sorry, was on 1st Amnd Comment
IL_Glock21 (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 5:00PM EST (link)The other issues are, at least my opinion, an appeal to tradition that doesn’t really speak to the validity or correctness of modern application of government limitations/rights.
The theocratic style of government in many of the earlier colonies, especially those who came here to establish their own religious communities in peace away from the oppressive religious policies where they were from interfering in that, wouldn’t fly under our modern system.
The State/local indifference to the 1st Amendment restrictions on respecting an establishment of religion in our early history under a Constitutional government are also fairly irrelevant to our modern system as the 1st Amendment was viewed as not applying to that level of government, and even long after the 14th Amendment, it has been a slow process of defining if and eventually to what degree the 14th Amendment makes such protection applicable against State/local government.
Traditions prior to that may have been perfectly acceptable under the Constitution before, but that doesn’t speak to whether it would be a proper application under modern constitutional law and interpretation. Nor does it speak to whether or not liberty is best protected with such a limitation on government in order to prevent further intrusion into other areas of religious freedom.
On the one hand you’ll have some argue that limiting government in such a way is actually empowering the government to limit rights. Others argue that limiting government in such a way ensures it is denied the power to limit our inalienable rights.
Hence why two reasonable people, one Christian and one atheist, will look at the exact same situation and one will see it as a judge forcing his minority view on the majority, and the other will see it as a judge limiting the government from heading down the slippery slope of meddling in issues that are purely in the realm of individual rights/liberty.
There are some yahoos on both sides who simply seek to squash their ideological opponents, but most on both sides lack malicious motives and actually share the same pursuit of liberty, even if they disagree on the best ways/methods to do so.
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- “Make love not war? Real men can do both!”
So you're saying that I'm basically right, but it really doesn't matter :)
tcgeol (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 5:13PM EST (link)I don’t know – the First Amendment has never changed. The 14th is questionable in how it relates, and I’m not at all certain that throwing out 175 years of jurisprudence and replacing it with modern Constitutional theory is the best way. Most modern theory is wrong on everything else the Constitution says – I don’t hold much hope for that, either.
Just your typical bitter gun- and God-clinger
Even the Left admits we’re Right
Heh... not quite what I meant
IL_Glock21 (Diary) Wednesday, December 10th at 5:47PM EST (link)My point wasn’t that the 1st Amendment has changed, but that it wasn’t legally applicable prior to its existence, nor was it legally applicable against State/local government until far later in our history as without 14th Amendment incorporation the Bill of Rights generally did not reach to that level of gov’t.
And my view of modern Constitutional law is incorporating both amendments and jurisprudence over our nation’s history as opposed to ignoring it or throwing it out.
And I agree that not all rulings are the best, nor is the current precedent ideal, but that’s why I was alluding to the idea that reasonable people can disagree on what the best interpretation is. On this issue it appears I’m closer to modern precedent, whereas you seem to have doubts about whether 14th Amendment incorporation is appropriate on this issue.
One of my few disagreements with Clarence Thomas is on the idea of substantive due process, and he’s my favorite justice in general on the bench. So I can certainly relate with frustration with a great deal of modern precedent. This is one area where I don’t think modern precedent has limited government power enough… mostly due to the clash with tradition making it nearly impossible to implement (and being political suicide).
But when it comes down to it, you seem to believe the traditional ways have merit, while I believe that further restrictions have merit, even though we seem to agree that religious freedom in general is important and Constitutionally protected.
So I think we’d both agree the other is wrong, but for reasons unlikely to persuade the other due to our Constitutional interpretations as opposed to logical contradictions. If I’ve learned anything that it’s nearly impossible to prove one way or the other on substantive due process due to the ambiguity of the language employed in the 14th Amendment that allows various approaches on ideas of intent, textual, originalist, a construction of prior precedent of similar prior language, etc etc etc. Even if those arguing can agree on what the current precedent is, right or wrong, and what clear language they’re basing their views upon.
ie… I think that’s where we hit a stalemate.
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- “Make love not war? Real men can do both!”